RH insurance premiums

[Peter Naulls]

My premium with RH increased by 15% this year, for the third year running. I did question why and was told it was "too boring to explain"  but the regular increases did go alongside a commitment to never increase premiums by more than 15%

I also noted that one car had changed from agreed value to market value (quickly changed back after some discussion about whether I needed to get it valued again) and I was asked to go through all the modifications to my special. The call handler seemed surprised they did not have modifications on record, which in itself is slightly troubling.

The call centre staff and ongoing price increases should give me good reason to shop around but Emma's willingness to fight our corner and a general sense that claims are well handled are making me stay.

Incidentally I'm not entirely convinced that the insurance industry is having to raise premiums across the board; two modern car premiums are largely unchanged from last year, once house insurance premium is 5% up and one is 50% down.

[andrew34ruby]

I moved from RH to Hagerty because we failed to resolve the matter over Public Liability cover. RH said we don't need Public Liability and it should be provided by event organisers, but event organisers say that to bring our cars we must have Public Liability cover.

In this at least, RH are correct. Public Liability Insurance at an event is a matter for the organisers of that event. If they don't have it and say that it is a matter for the individual entrants and make you sign to that effect then they have passed their Public Liability responsibilities onto you. You might have control of your own actions but potentially you're taking on the responsibilities for the actions of others. Simple rule. If the organisers don't have Public Liability Insurance in place for their event, don't go. If you do go, it's no good complaining if it all goes wrong and you have to sell your house to meet a claim that should have been the liability of the organisers.

Steve

Steve, I tend to agree, but not going would make me tend to think there is no point in having my old cars. I don't like to go further than maybe thirty miles to an event so if I rule out the ones that say I must have public liability insurance, there isn't a lot left! And it's not just the little events saying we must have PLI, some big events are saying this. It seems to be an issue that needs sorting out.

[Charles P]

Many of the problems around insurance arise, as they seem to with DVLA, from having providers who are not designed around the needs of prewar car owners.
We were spoilt by John Scott and Partners and their underwriters, KGM, who really knew the needs of prewar car owners and provided excellent, knowledgeable service

[Austin Nippy]

Good morning everyone,
I've just renewed the Nippy insirance with RH at the same cost as last year. I did ring them to let them know I no longer worked full time and didn't need the "business" cover on it any more. They then initially told me there was now no unlimited mileage allowance; the maximum being 5000 miles a year even though the renewal showed "unlimited."
After a quick check, they've removed the business use and retained the unlimited mileage and the cost was exactly as per the initial quote...
I've never needed to claim on insurance so don't know about their service other than what people have told me over the years but I know I did do a little shipping around a few years ago and everywhere else was roughly double the RH price at the time.
Looks like I'll be staying with RH until something significantly better and cheaper comes along.
Best wishes,
Nick

[Andy Bennett]

I moved from RH to Hagerty because we failed to resolve the matter over Public Liability cover. RH said we don't need Public Liability and it should be provided by event organisers, but event organisers say that to bring our cars we must have Public Liability cover.

In this at least, RH are correct. Public Liability Insurance at an event is a matter for the organisers of that event. If they don't have it and say that it is a matter for the individual entrants and make you sign to that effect then they have passed their Public Liability responsibilities onto you. You might have control of your own actions but potentially you're taking on the responsibilities for the actions of others. Simple rule. If the organisers don't have Public Liability Insurance in place for their event, don't go. If you do go, it's no good complaining if it all goes wrong and you have to sell your house to meet a claim that should have been the liability of the organisers.

Steve

Steve, I tend to agree, but not going would make me tend to think there is no point in having my old cars. I don't like to go further than maybe thirty miles to an event so if I rule out the ones that say I must have public liability insurance, there isn't a lot left! And it's not just the little events saying we must have PLI, some big events are saying this. It seems to be an issue that needs sorting out.

Andrew: I know we have been over this before but it is 100% the organisers role to have public liability insurance.  I would question whether Haggerty offer this as a part of regular insurance.

You have previously said yourself that their wording is ambiguous and unclear regarding moderns etc. Their standard wording is that they offer 'third party liability insurance'. This isn't the same as public liability insurance, it is just a regular part of comprehensive insurance. To have public liability insurance an insurer would want to know what type of event/s you want insurance for. This is why each event has its own appropriate insurance. Is the insurer insuring you on a road race event where you are running on the ragged edge and risk spinning off and hitting a spectator or for sitting in a field on a deckchair with people wandering around? They would want to see your risk assessments and mitigations to protect the public. Without this knowledge they simply can't be offering you a do anything 'public liability insurance' as a standard part of your annual insurance.

[andrew34ruby]

Andrew: I know we have been over this before but it is 100% the organisers role to have public liability insurance.  I would question whether Haggerty offer this as a part of regular insurance.

You have previously said yourself that their wording is ambiguous and unclear regarding moderns etc. Their standard wording is that they offer 'third party liability insurance'. This isn't the same as public liability insurance, it is just a regular part of comprehensive insurance. To have public liability insurance an insurer would want to know what type of event/s you want insurance for. This is why each event has its own appropriate insurance. Is the insurer insuring you on a road race event where you are running on the ragged edge and risk spinning off and hitting a spectator or for sitting in a field on a deckchair with people wandering around? They would want to see your risk assessments and mitigations to protect the public. Without this knowledge they simply can't be offering you a do anything 'public liability insurance' as a standard part of your annual insurance.

I did question Hagerty and they assured me their cover was sufficient to attend these events that asked us to sign. RH assured me they did not.

I would expect my insurance to cover me for anything I am liable for, and expect the organisers to have insurance for anything they are liable for.

[Howard Wright]

Hi All

This has been covered in issue 2023C of the Grey Mag.  In a piece by Emma Airey she established from Peter Barret (the RH team manager who works with Haggerty on several panels) that Haggerty’s small print was similar to that of RH and their policies certainly did not include ‘Public Liability Insurance’. Proviso they may have changed this over the last year!

I do not attend two local events specifically as they demand ‘Public Liability Insurance’. There is just too much risk….to me!

Howard

[RH Insurance]

With regard to the comments re Public Liability cover, there is often confusion between public liability vs third party liability.

Motor insurance policies do not give Public Liability cover, which is in line with the standard approach throughout the motor insurance industry.

Comprehensive motor insurance policies do give third party liability cover which provides cover for the policyholder whilst on private property. This could be pulling onto your drive, driving in a supermarket car park, or at a show/event - with the exception in most cases where the vehicle is airside or on a motor racing circuit.

This means that, in the event you are driving your vehicle and you collide with a third party (that could be property, people, or another vehicle), then you have cover in place to avoid paying for the resultant damage out of your own pocket.

In addition, if your vehicle was parked on a hill and the handbrake failed causing it to roll into another person's vehicle, this is also an insurable event.

Section 1 of RH's policy wording does provide cover for 'liability to others'. For example, if the insured's actions had led to someone tripping over their stationary vehicle whilst attending an event.

I can therefore confirm, on behalf of RH, that you are covered for attending events in terms of third party liability to others.

Event organisers should have public liability cover in place for themselves as potentially an accident at the event (trip or fall) could render them liable for resultant injury or damage claims.

I trust this clarifies.

---

With regard to RH's approach to modified vintage/classic vehicles - I can confirm:

The main reason we ask for details of modifications is so that we can ensure your vehicle is returned to the same condition it was in (including any aftermarket parts) before an accident.

The vast majority of modifications won't affect premium.  For example, uprated lights or a standard engine/carb swap, etc.  

If you have replaced the standard engine with a more modern and/or higher performance engine then this will mostly likely attract a premium increase.

Each case is assessed on its own merits.

If anyone has a specific example they would like to discuss, please feel free to email me direct - emma.airey@rhspecialistinsurance.co.uk - I am always delighted to hear from you and provide assistance.

Emma

[Andy Bennett]

Andrew: you say 'I would expect my insurance to cover me for anything I am liable for, and expect the organisers to have insurance for anything they are liable for.'.
The reality is that insurance is never that clean and tidy. You can have an accident at an event that is your fault but the insurance liability is covered by others. And in many cases that insurance will be offset by further insurance against that insurance being claimed against. The ultimate liability can be a long way from any claim. That's just life.

I think the last 2 posts confirm what I believed to be the case and was was trying to explain to you in my earlier post. Simple logic says that Haggerty just cannot be offering you public liability insurance.
So take your pick between Haggerty and RH, but don't do so on that basis and certainly don't tick any boxes on event forms that say you have Public Liability Insurance as if you are claiming to have it and there is some unfortunate incident then there could be all sorts of repercussions on you, because the organiser could then sue you on the basis that they didn't insure you because you claimed to have your own public liability insurance. It's a mess you don't need to get yourself in.

[andrew34ruby]

With regard to the comments re Public Liability cover, there is often confusion between public liability vs third party liability.

Motor insurance policies do not give Public Liability cover, which is in line with the standard approach throughout the motor insurance industry.

Comprehensive motor insurance policies do give third party liability cover which provides cover for the policyholder whilst on private property.
Emma

Emma, I understand and agree with what you are saying, but it seems that some event organisers do not understand. They ask us to sign, or put a tick in a box etc. These are large organisers of many events and to not attend those is not an option I would like to take. I was not wanting to get into this discussion again, but was simply mentioning that I moved from RH to Hagerty and then had to make a claim. The claim is still going but I felt that the experience of claiming (with Hagerty) is better than I might have expected.