1923 chummy

[JonE]

The only reason that it is causing stress is that people are apportioning 'right' and 'wrong' to things. Which is the wrong way of looking at it. Times change and things happen/have happened. Ultimately, provenance is surely important, and Bill's story demonstrates that. Likewise specials created early on - they happened, and they have their own importance now for social reasons perhaps connected to individual owners.

But, saying that, you could end up with a percentage score for originality. And a percentage score for provenance; what proportion of original physical structure remains and what proportion of their lives are known. Doesn't the Jenks list (someone posted recently) give some good sensible headings that were used in racing cars?

There will be cars that still emerge from coachhouses which weren't on the club circuit in the 60s.

[Tony Betts]

for me, 

i always feel provenance is a very expensive word, that needs to be kept with prooven race cars.

anything else old, TO ME. has history. its a much much cheaper word.

tony

[Edgar Lowe]

Denis Jenkinson said:

"Original"
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to
have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the
Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an
original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as
“nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all
such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing
car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs
since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have
remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on,
and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original
material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor
does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”,
regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is
nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.

"Genuine"
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and
can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous
lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed
their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they
have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of
numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never
been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been
altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is
not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have
been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine;
but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.

"Authentic"
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered
career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from
view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has
always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back
to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some
subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old
Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its
useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine
replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to
deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its
racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank,
new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery
and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the
Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the
labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question
of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its
sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though
such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due
to the ravages of time and use.

"Resurrection"
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were
abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use
on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an
acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still
scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such
components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a
new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the
bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot
claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an
authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the
graveyard.

"Re-construction"
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of
components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of
the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these
small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the
original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left
over when decomposition set in.

"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an
original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model,
for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only
be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built
by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at
best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation
is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from
sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is
remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of
genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its
value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to
Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from
the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent
about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real
thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the
constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type
E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous
owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car,
and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is
very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the
paying public are gullible.

"Special"
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain
of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever
been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but
inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he
is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it
will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one.
The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car,
by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the
car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or
he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and
do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally
accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.

"Duplication"
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the
lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix
Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an
incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another
incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found
suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had
new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where
there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for
his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its
members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially
those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business
borders on fraud.

"Destroyed"
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved
in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in
recognizable shape or form.

[Hedd_Jones]

Tony with respect to a suitable registration number, its worth noting you can put a private plate on a car that has been issued an age related plate. Tou just need to buy a 1923 issued number that is suitable. OL or OK or sumsuch. Costly but worth itd say

[Tony Betts]

hi hedd,

i have heard that one before.

and did think about doing that.

but if im honest, im bothered about an original number to make the car look more acceptable to those who will pick falt in an age related number.

if people cant see why cars are given age related numbers, then i dont take anything from there opinions.

my interest in the cars ORIGINAL number, is that the cars history may then be able to be tracked. if not by me, then by future owners.

so if anyone has any ideas, please let me know.

thanks tony

[Tony Betts]

i got some good news today.

i was put onto a quality body builder last month. CAR body builder i should say. (save on the comments).

i got a quote from him today.

scoop scuttle body including ash frame, bonnet, and wings. £4,000 to £5,000

to be made next april to may time. needless to say ive taken this offer up.

can be cheaper the more there are made?

so if anyone is building and early car, here is your chance.

all ill make out of it is, i get my body cheaper as well.

tony.