Austin Seven (and other) values........

[Parazine]

I have a MG TD (yes, Shock! Horror!), as well as numerous Austin 7’s. I recently read a thread on the MG Enthusiasts’ BBS about values of old cars. I quote (with all due rights reserved etc.):

“The popularity and value of any pre 1960s car is on the decline. I have been trying to sell a 1933 MG J2 for over a year and very few people are interested. Compare this to Ford Escort Mexicos and Mini Coopers which a few years ago you would find in a scrap yard and they are now advertised at £50,000! This applies to all sorts of things. We had a superb roll top desk which at one time would have sold for £1000. It was too big for us so I asked a local auction house to sell it. They said transportation would cost more than I could sell it for! Eventually I sold it on eBay to a single bidder for £80. Compare that to UK G Plan and Ercol furniture from the 1960s which sells for a fortune.”

I have recently noticed that the Austin 7 market is beginning to soften in the UK slightly. Coupled with this, my local Austin 7 club (BA7C) is now mostly populated by retired, grey haired gentlemen of a “certain age”. It is becoming increasingly more difficult for the club to run its day to day business and events are poorly supported, viz. the BA7C rally 2017 attracted less than 50 cars, compared to Longleat and Spye Park in the ‘seventies and ‘eighties with 200+.
I can relate to the furniture comment as well, I am interested in long case (grandfather) clocks. I recently bought a perfectly original 30hr “cottage” white dial clock dating from 1780 or so on eBay for £100. A few years ago, this would have fetched £1200 from an antique dealer and £500 from a second hand furniture shop. Nowadays, such items are difficult to give away.

Another MG BBS contributor from the USA states (again I quote with all rights reserved):
“Generation X and Millennials have less interest in cars than Baby Boomers, especially older cars. The number of new license application is declining although the population is still increasing. 
Many current owners of collector/antique cars reported they no longer enjoyed driving their older cars on congested highways with overly aggressive drivers.  
There was some speculation that the collector car industry (and associated parts suppliers) will continue to collapse and might not be viable in 25 years. This could be exacerbated if new safety and clean-air regulations prevent older cars from even being registered.”

Maybe it’s time to reduce my collection of cars. I don’t want to but I also don’t want to lumber my executors with a load of old junk they have to dispose of if the future.
What do the Austin 7 cognoscenti think?
Discuss.

[merlinart]

Fascinating but in line with some of my thinking.

I'm an aviation historian at heart (mainly around WW2) and I notice that this area is in a very similar state, likewise interest in preserved railways, which appears to be on a slow decline.

There is in the preserved railway world, a school of thought that is now tending towards the notion that in reality railway preservation societies are in essence simply temporary custodians, and in Britain we are slowly seeing the disconnected private lines being reconnected to the main system. These re-connections then offer potential new life to the main system truncated by Beeching in the 1960s in the UK.

The point being that the age related nostalgia is potentially moving into a different phase.

Likewise, I sell kit car three wheelers, and most of my clients have been 60s/70s/80s, with very few younger chaps. The UK kit car industry is on the decline and has been for a decade. Fewer younger people wish to get their hands dirty, prefering computer systems etc and with modern cars being ECU controlled this is hardly surprising.

Interestingly, there has been a debate recently about the meaning of nostalgia. It is most fascinating and the theory tends to emanate from the 18th century in Switzerland, when mercenaries felt homesick. It has always been seen as a psychosis of the mind, and was in fact a clinical disposition and still is.

I suspect that the current age related trend for nostalgia and in particular cars, will change, but we also need to take into account potential changes in disposable income. My generation (I'm 62) and the previous generation have lived in an era of progressive disposable income. I do not see this happening in quite the same fashion with latter generations struggling with housing, educational costs, diminishing pensions etc. This will unfortunately trickle down to the values of our cars surely, and potentially seems to be doing so.

One can also see that nostalgia has been a major factor in some people's views on the EU, again perhaps a generational challenge, who knows, but certainly in the interim period and until 2021, we in Britain are likely to see less disposable income.

Of course, not withstanding the above...there are younger people about who can, will and do like our older cars, but it is the same old supply and demand equation, when there's a dearth of anything, expect to pay more, and vice versa.

Arthur

[austin]

I for one hope that values go down.

That way I'll actually be able to buy the cars I want to drive rather than being priced out of the market!

[Michael]

Interesting topic and broadly I agree. It is a similar situation with boats.

Some points:

1) Gone are the days of sneaking off work early. People with jobs are even more 'time poor' than they were. Only the oldies have time in theory.

2) The concept of 'ownership' has changed. I think this is something to do with the virtual world. 'Ownership' is no longer as attractive or achievable as it once was.

3) Where to keep things like cars or boats is another matter and far from cheap unless you have what is now a luxury, ie a garage of your own.

Of course there are exceptions but I think the key to all this is the changing attitude to 'ownership'.

[vintage_racing]

Rubbish.

Go to any VSCC club event, where you will find dozens of well fettled Austin Sevens, the majority of which driven by younger drivers.

At a recent winter trial, with just over 100 cars entered, almost 50 were Austin's.

Good cars fetch high prices, which is in part reflective of the costs to (re)build.

We are luckier than ever, with cheap motor insurance, a wonderful choice of spares and parts via several key suppliers. And for those who can't work on their own cars - plenty of skilled engineers to help.

I could list half dozen firms who have over a year's work in their order books.

[Colin Morgan]

It is hard to know how many of the next generation will enjoy using prewar cars, but there will certainly be some - I know a few.  As we are all aware, Sevens have a number of advantages over many other cars of that era.  They are relatively inexpensive to buy, well designed and made, interesting to work on (advice and parts readily available) and small - mine lives happily in a single garage - my modern car is too wide.  And there are lots of different cars all sharing similar mechanics.  If old cars are cheaper again in the future this will be good, in my opinion - it is unfortunate when speculators who are more interested in the money become involved.  

It has already become harder to use a Seven on the road, as over the last twenty years as there are fewer slower vehicles on the road and young drivers often have less knowledge about what is in front of them - but the congestion round here at least means speed isn't a problem.  However, driving can be less fun, except at quiet times e.g. during the Cup Final.  Looking further ahead, I cannot imagine how it might work should the other vehicles become driverless - though they will probably be more consistent and polite?

Meanwhile, we can all help by spreading our knowledge to those who show an interest.

Colin

PS Having also last year picked up a handsome working grandfather clock from about 1760 for less than £100, there are advantages to changes in fashion and demand.

[merlinart]

Rubbish.

Go to any VSCC club event, where you will find dozens of well fettled Austin Sevens, the majority of which driven by younger drivers.

At a recent winter trial, with just over 100 cars entered, almost 50 were Austin's.

Good cars fetch high prices, which is in part reflective of the costs to (re)build.

We are luckier than ever, with cheap motor insurance, a wonderful choice of spares and parts via several key suppliers.  And for those who can't work on their own cars - plenty of skilled engineers to help.

I could list half dozen firms who have over a year's work in their order books.

Agreed, and possibly something to do with the fact that the outlay is relatively small for a 7, however, this is most likely a small niche market, possibly smaller than the kit car market...expensive kit cars, over £50-100K haven't suffered, the kit Cobra and replica GT40 brigade are in a different league. I'm in the sub £30K league and I know this is suffering from a diminished interest.

Certain classics have rocketed whereas MGs tend not have done. Frankly I too want to see prices reasonable rather than priced out. I don't believe that any of us do this for an investment that's for sure. I used to sell a lot of aviation art and many print collectors thought it was an investment...paper and ink fade once framed even if using conservation materials, so little investment. Buy to enjoy the moment.

Arthur

[Erich]

This is certainly an interesting debate. An acquaintance does high end car detailing,and has a number of cars,the oldest being a 50's Mercedes sedan. He also has a couple of Citroens both from the 60's. In my case, my Seven is my first prewar car. I've had a number of post war cars over the years, but found myself tired by the relative complication, coupled with difficulty in sourcing parts. Getting plastic trim bits for a Mit Delica proved a real challenge. There is the argument that many people who buy classic cars, search out the car of their youth. They can't apply in my case, nor my 23 year old son's lusting after a Mk1 Sprite. I do agree that many millennials are less interested in driving. In my son's case, he didn't get his license until he was 18, but now has "spriteitus". There is here in the US, something called the "maker movement". While millennials work on computers, many are finding satisfaction in creating things like furniture. There is burgeoning industry renting spaces for such work with tools. Typewriters are enjoying a resurgence in interest because of their mechanical nature. While the market may wane, it may surprise us with a small renaissance.


Erich

[JonE]

Haptic skills are strongly linked to wellbeing and confidence/self esteem so fiddling with old cars fits that model, as per the craft resurgence.

I do wonder why Austin 7s will remain popular. Something to do with skills development (anyone remember watching seminal things like Day of the Triffids and Survivors 1970s TV serials - the Austin 7 people would still be having little noggin and natter gatherings while the world around them ended...) and having dependable technology when big brother fails.

[Tony Betts]

It's good to see you people noticing change. The austin owners matra of old, only understood. " I want it cheaper".

Maybe the 7 world has a future after all.

Car prices, were always going to drop. As they went up so quickly. And always the cream risses to the top. So you should pay more for the best and scarce.

I have the same talk here with a customer the other day, that I have with many over parts prices. The risses over recent years are not pushed by the suppliers. Or even the machine shops that supply us.

House prices, mean machine shop rent goes up hugely.
Gas has rocketed.
Electric has rocketed.
It feels like every month I get warning of emission charges going up from foundries.
Ever tried renting gas bottles
And there is much much more, it all pushes up manufacturing prices.

One worry for the future, is is car prices fall back to far. The price of spares won't relate. And you may see less suppliers. Wich men's less support for your hobby.

Personally I don't think interest in pre war cars has changed, it's the type of people who are buying into them.

Most newbys are not interested in clubs, wich is were you will see numbers drop at events.

Most newbys don't look to do there own repaires, wich is why most rebuild companies have far more work than they need.

With the latter changes of owners also show why thee is less interest in autojumbles, newbys have ebay. And dont even know we're beaulieu is.

Anyone who wants to panic about there car being unwanted in the future, can always donate them to me. I'll find room somewere

Tony.