I hand painted my Ulster with Satin finish Tekaloid and each coat took about half an hour. I think three coats were required before I was happy. Yes I was knackered when I had finished each coat but you have to work quickly or the paint goes off. Brush painting in hot sunny weather sounds ideal but I found working on cooler days to be better. I am very pleased with the finish and it seems to be very durable. The body had stood about for many years so preparation involved rubbing it down with a medium emery paper and applying a coat of red oxide. The inside of the body and the scuttle etc were primed and painted with a petrol and oil resistant satin black paint obtained off the internet. Underside of the body was primed and given two coats of a stone resistant plastic spray paint followed by a coat of black gloss. Overall bill for the paint was about £100.
Compared to a two pack paint finish, the satin Tekaloid looks much more original and does not highlight the imperfections, of which there are many!
(13-11-2017, 12:08 PM)Malcolm Parker Wrote: I hand painted my Ulster with Satin finish Tekaloid and each coat took about half an hour. I think three coats were required before I was happy. Yes I was knackered when I had finished each coat but you have to work quickly or the paint goes off. Brush painting in hot sunny weather sounds ideal but I found working on cooler days to be better. I am very pleased with the finish and it seems to be very durable. The body had stood about for many years so preparation involved rubbing it down with a medium emery paper and applying a coat of red oxide. The inside of the body and the scuttle etc were primed and painted with a petrol and oil resistant satin black paint obtained off the internet. Underside of the body was primed and given two coats of a stone resistant plastic spray paint followed by a coat of black gloss. Overall bill for the paint was about £100.
Compared to a two pack paint finish, the satin Tekaloid looks much more original and does not highlight the imperfections, of which there are many!
Well done Malcolm, I'd say you did pretty well if you got there in three coats. Absolutely, each coat is barely 30 mins or so (flat out!), it's all the rubbing down when you get it wrong that takes the time!
Yes, I know 'overthink' very well....it's that thing which happens when you spend all day at work dreaming about working on the Seven, then come home and realise it's not quite how you pictured it!
Radius arms seems to have been covered. On the topic of painting, I'm just completing an 'overhaul' of my Ulster rep. It's a slightly different situation as I was re-painting but maybe something of interest. I should start by saying I have no clue what the original scheme was.
The floor: I stripped inside and out to bare clean metal and treated with POR 15 & Blackcote. This included the scuttle & footwell area. I'm not sure I would do this again, it's difficult to get a nice finish brushing on Blackcote & the whole thing was quite an enterprise. I reckon Hammerite would be just as good. I also put a couple of coats of underbody seal on the underneath. I feel pretty confident it will last forever - it has been running the last 35 years with nothing but a coat of underbody seal and only rusted where this has finally dropped off. Paint the floor before you paint the body colour.
The tail (interior): I gave it a clean up, a squirt of etch primer, and a coat or two of 2-pack from an aerosol. The finish is not important here but I think it looks better in body colour.
Body interior: I didn't paint the interior body sides, but made some wafer thin trim panels from aero grade 1/16" ply, which I then covered with black Rexine. You can easily fabricate a couple of clips to hold the panels in position, mostly I used existing bolts and holes, the cockpit edge trim, etc. The beauty of these is you can run wiring for the tail lights behind them, secured to the body sides with tank tape.
Body exterior: Whatever you paint it with, ally will need a thin etch primer coat to begin with.
I was quoted £1500 to spray the body shell alone with 2-pack, which sounded a bit rich to me (though I gather this is a fair price). I'm not a fan of 2-pack paint either (in my experience it chips easily). I chose to brush paint my car with Craftmaster enamel. I will happily write you an essay about this if you choose to follow the same path. I warn you though that it's a major undertaking, which will eat at least one summer! And that you will not finish the job without some endearing imperfections. If I had another car to do I think I would buy a spray gun! The plus side of this is it's cheap (a couple of hundred quid perhaps), and when all's said and done, I hate 'restored' cars with flawless spray jobs, it's the single thing in my opinion which kills the character of a vintage car most effectively.
By the way, something which ought to be better known is that Ulster bodies are not particularly strong and eventually crack alongside the windscreen irons, and below the spare wheel aperture (especially if you carry luggage in the tail!) If building from new it is worth incorporating a bit of reinforcement in these areas. Make sure the dash supports fit well and consider bonding a patch of ally under the dash ends to increase the thickness of the body sides locally. At the rear, I installed thin steel panels on the inside of the body which bolt into the floor and bridge the gap between the front and rear of the spare wheel well, boxing it in. I also connected the (steel) floor panel of the tail to the back of the spare wheel slot using shelf brackets, making a strong and continuous floor. I have seen pictures of original 'Ulsters' which were modified (or repaired) in a similar way.
Chris
Excellent, many thanks Chris. Your idea of thin internal panels is good, indeed I've seen millboard used. On my three wheelers, I've started bonding carpet to the inside of the main side panels. At first I used the wrong type of carpet, and found that it simply "cracked off" the aluminium after a month or so, so found a much thinner black carpet from Automobile Trimming Co in West London. Yes I've noted already a degree of flimsiness in the body in certain places although I paid Rod Yates extra for a stiffener panel behind the seats which has a large cut out in it, but it is still flimsy around the spare wheel aperture and just behind.
Rather than use the slotted screws and nuts (not sure what the size is yet, not being used to imperial stuff...the thread is approx. 3.9mm) on the detachable internal panels including the afore mentioned stiffener panel, I shall use riv-nuts....which I'm sure had they been around in the 20/30s would have been used. Again in my cars, I use masses of riv-nuts and even pushed the boat out for an expensive air riv nut tool.
I take your point about areas which might crack, so will also stiffen. I will unbolt the dashboard and take out the slotted screws and replace with socket button heads and also riv nuts, thus making it easier to remove in future.
I've gone for a louvred LH upper bonnet side panel as well, rather than the plain type that so many use, as I saw in a photo that the Earl of March and "Sammy" Davis in their Brooklands racer had a similar panel. This will need stiffening internally when I cut an aperture for the exhaust branch.
Originally my idea was to have the body professionally polished (I might still ask my polisher for his advise) but where the panels are gas welded and ground down there are some small pits which obviously would be filled with primer etc if painting. There was a bare aluminium Ulster at the 750MC Seven meeting at Beaulieu in July, which looked quite good in a semi tarnished/polished state, but mirror finish polish would look good until it tarnishes....still not sure yet.
For the body sides of my Ulster I used 3mm birch ply with a thin leathercloth glued on with spray adhesive. Other than being trapped by the cockpit edging (made from split heater hose) it is not fixed in any way and is very securely fitted. The curved plywood adds considerable stiffness to the rather flimsy cockpit sides.
I also added a reinforcing metal strip to the lower flange of the dashboard. If you are not using a windscreen do not omit the angle support brackets, they appear to brace the whole scuttle. Additional strengthening in this area cannot be a bad thing.
When fixing the body to the chassis, add a pair of steel strip supports under each seat at the sides of the transmission tunnel. These are bolted to the rear cross-member and add useful support where it is needed.
Fix a sturdy plywood or aluminium bulkhead across the rear of the cockpit, this will strengthen the whole rear body and can be used for the seat backrest.
Yes, I know 'overthink' very well....it's that thing which happens when you spend all day at work dreaming about working on the Seven, then come home and realise it's not quite how you pictured it!
Radius arms seems to have been covered. On the topic of painting, I'm just completing an 'overhaul' of my Ulster rep. It's a slightly different situation as I was re-painting but maybe something of interest. I should start by saying I have no clue what the original scheme was.
The floor: I stripped inside and out to bare clean metal and treated with POR 15 & Blackcote. This included the scuttle & footwell area. I'm not sure I would do this again, it's difficult to get a nice finish brushing on Blackcote & the whole thing was quite an enterprise. I reckon Hammerite would be just as good. I also put a couple of coats of underbody seal on the underneath. I feel pretty confident it will last forever - it has been running the last 35 years with nothing but a coat of underbody seal and only rusted where this has finally dropped off. Paint the floor before you paint the body colour.
The tail (interior): I gave it a clean up, a squirt of etch primer, and a coat or two of 2-pack from an aerosol. The finish is not important here but I think it looks better in body colour.
Body interior: I didn't paint the interior body sides, but made some wafer thin trim panels from aero grade 1/16" ply, which I then covered with black Rexine. You can easily fabricate a couple of clips to hold the panels in position, mostly I used existing bolts and holes, the cockpit edge trim, etc. The beauty of these is you can run wiring for the tail lights behind them, secured to the body sides with tank tape.
Body exterior: Whatever you paint it with, ally will need a thin etch primer coat to begin with.
I was quoted £1500 to spray the body shell alone with 2-pack, which sounded a bit rich to me (though I gather this is a fair price). I'm not a fan of 2-pack paint either (in my experience it chips easily). I chose to brush paint my car with Craftmaster enamel. I will happily write you an essay about this if you choose to follow the same path. I warn you though that it's a major undertaking, which will eat at least one summer! And that you will not finish the job without some endearing imperfections. If I had another car to do I think I would buy a spray gun! The plus side of this is it's cheap (a couple of hundred quid perhaps), and when all's said and done, I hate 'restored' cars with flawless spray jobs, it's the single thing in my opinion which kills the character of a vintage car most effectively.
By the way, something which ought to be better known is that Ulster bodies are not particularly strong and eventually crack alongside the windscreen irons, and below the spare wheel aperture (especially if you carry luggage in the tail!) If building from new it is worth incorporating a bit of reinforcement in these areas. Make sure the dash supports fit well and consider bonding a patch of ally under the dash ends to increase the thickness of the body sides locally. At the rear, I installed thin steel panels on the inside of the body which bolt into the floor and bridge the gap between the front and rear of the spare wheel well, boxing it in. I also connected the (steel) floor panel of the tail to the back of the spare wheel slot using shelf brackets, making a strong and continuous floor. I have seen pictures of original 'Ulsters' which were modified (or repaired) in a similar way.
Chris
Excellent, many thanks Chris. Your idea of thin internal panels is good, indeed I've seen millboard used. On my three wheelers, I've started bonding carpet to the inside of the main side panels. At first I used the wrong type of carpet, and found that it simply "cracked off" the aluminium after a month or so, so found a much thinner black carpet from Automobile Trimming Co in West London. Yes I've noted already a degree of flimsiness in the body in certain places although I paid Rod Yates extra for a stiffener panel behind the seats which has a large cut out in it, but it is still flimsy around the spare wheel aperture and just behind.
Rather than use the slotted screws and nuts (not sure what the size is yet, not being used to imperial stuff...the thread is approx. 3.9mm) on the detachable internal panels including the afore mentioned stiffener panel, I shall use riv-nuts....which I'm sure had they been around in the 20/30s would have been used. Again in my cars, I use masses of riv-nuts and even pushed the boat out for an expensive air riv nut tool.
I take your point about areas which might crack, so will also stiffen. I will unbolt the dashboard and take out the slotted screws and replace with socket button heads and also riv nuts, thus making it easier to remove in future.
I've gone for a louvred LH upper bonnet side panel as well, rather than the plain type that so many use, as I saw in a photo that the Earl of March and "Sammy" Davis in their Brooklands racer had a similar panel. This will need stiffening internally when I cut an aperture for the exhaust branch.
Originally my idea was to have the body professionally polished (I might still ask my polisher for his advise) but where the panels are gas welded and ground down there are some small pits which obviously would be filled with primer etc if painting. There was a bare aluminium Ulster at the 750MC Seven meeting at Beaulieu in July, which looked quite good in a semi tarnished/polished state, but mirror finish polish would look good until it tarnishes....still not sure yet.
Arthur
Arthur
As I recall (from having made literally millions of Aluminium Rivnuts under licence from BFG to use the name!) the Rivnut was invented in the late 1930's, by Louis Huck in the USA for the BF Goodrich (rubber) company to put a thread inside a blind panel...initially to hold inflatable rubber de-icing "boots" onto metal aircraft wings. When the patent ran out the product was copied by every man & his dog with a workshop!. Most are churned out in the far-east, but reliable & reputable ones are available (Dejond's Tubtara, Avdel's Nutsert & Gesipa & Bollkhoff's Rivet Nut) usually more expensive than the generic, but you get what you pay for! Just make sure the hole is a good fit & you use the right grip for the material thickness. My sales engineers' party trick was to break the head off an R quality bolt in an aluminium Rivnut before the Rivnut thread stripped ! Land Rover specified a 3/8-24 UNF Aluminium Rivnut to hold the front winch onto the chassis!
David
David Harrison
I use steel riv nuts and generally buy from Torque Control, but might now buy from Titgemeyer, the company from whom I bought the air tool.
Arthur
Amazing!
Good choice! I started Titgemeyer(UK) when I was made redundant from Linread in1995 where I was MD of Lintite.. the Division that made Aluminium Rivnuts & sold Dejond Tubtara Rivetnuts amongst other clever fasteners!
Torque Control were another offshoot from Linread & also later sold Tubtaras!
Mention David Harrison to T(UK) and tell them you know me!! The owner of Titgemeyer GmbH in Germany is also an old car fan with a very nice TR4A & an XK120 coupe that he is now rebuilding ...which is how I got to start up
T(UK)! I retired from there in 2009, but am still in good & regular contact with them all
Small world
David
Paint. I would not use H.....te. My Scimitar front suspension had it on and it lasted no time at all.
POR 15 is the original product that KBS Coatings' paint started from. KBS Coatings has developed the paint a very long way over the several years since they parted company with POR. It is 100% waterproof. It needs to have the cleaning/application procedure followed to the letter to ensure it takes to the surface.
The big snag is that as an American based company it is difficult to find KBS Coatings paint in UK.....one of the importers who used to get it (here in Devon) has given up..(a wife working from home!!!).
As a paint it is as good as the blurb says....see the website and many praises from USA car builders forums. and I thoroughly recommend it. (I have no connection to the company other than being a very satisfied user)
I have demonstrated at club noggin, using an off cut against a dolly, how you really can hit it hard with a hammer and it does not mark and you can also bend the metal back and forward and it does not crack....so ideal for that flexible body. It will go on by brush and leave a near perfect surface finish as the brush marks just disappear. The big pain is that you must put the second coat on once the first is just touch dry, and ditto for a top colour coat if required (it is affected by UV hence the top coat) though the latest is far better resistant than the original. It can be sprayed for speed, but the gun must be thoroughly cleaned as soon as finish painting.. Once the paint is set nothing other than mechanical means will remove it (no chemical will touch it, it has to be ground off).
Holden used to do it and they still have some left but say they sell the POR 15 as they do not get asked for the KBS......I have tryed persuading them to stop the POR 15 and promote the KBS!!!!
Attached is info about how the KBS has been developed.
Please Please somebody out there do us all a favour and start importing and promoting it. Full info on KBS coatings website.
I tried POR 15 a few years ago and was extremely disappointed with it, maybe I did not use the product correctly but rust spread beneath it over a period of time, in my opinion it also goes on way to thick and glossy to look authentic on a vintage car. I have had far better results with other paint systems, and these days stay well away from the snake oil type products. 2K is my product of choice now, tough, minimal if any dry spray, more chip resistant than lacquers, and provided you avoid high build primers and ask for the right percentage gloss the finish is superb. The internal panels and under bonnet finish of a seven were satin black, 50-60% gloss looks about right, and for the exterior 80 to 90% gloss looks right to my eye, 100% gloss is just way too shiny.
(14-11-2017, 02:51 AM)Ian Williams Wrote: I tried POR 15 a few years ago and was extremely disappointed with it, maybe I did not use the product correctly but rust spread beneath it over a period of time, in my opinion it also goes on way to thick and glossy to look authentic on a vintage car. I have had far better results with other paint systems, and these days stay well away from the snake oil type products. 2K is my product of choice now, tough, minimal if any dry spray, more chip resistant than lacquers, and provided you avoid high build primers and ask for the right percentage gloss the finish is superb. The internal panels and under bonnet finish of a seven were satin black, 50-60% gloss looks about right, and for the exterior 80 to 90% gloss looks right to my eye, 100% gloss is just way too shiny.
Ian
I suspect that as you say you did not use it correctly.
Too thick! ...A quarter pint (113.6 mL) covers 6 sq ft with 2 coats......that is a large area so obviously not too thick paint. I have covered such areas. I wonder if you used a tin that had been previously opened and was "going off" since it cures with the atmosphere in an opened tin.....it goes thicker and more 'gloopy' in the tin. See the attachment for how to prevent opened tin from curing.
TOO GLOSSY.....that is their gloss finish......they also have a satin finish which perhaps would have looked more suitable for the finish required.......same 100% waterproof, same toughness (hit with hammer).
Can you let us know more details of the 2K you use please?
