Phoenix Crankshafts website down

[Bob Culver]

Lets hope quality can be maintained. As, except in racing, difference does not show for tens of thousands of miles and decades , and superiority to original even longer, there is a huge degree of trust as to material, treatment and handling of the finished product.
I suppose the proportion of cars fitted can be assessed from total sales to date. Any guesses?

[Tony Betts]

Hi Bob,

100% on what you are saying, But I've never had a reason to distrust the old Phoenix. And i have no reason to distrust the new owner practises.

I never asked for a spec sheet out of trust, but really cranks should come with one. So you know the quality and verious checks that have been done in manufacture. It then protects both parties.

As you say, if changes were made. It may not be noticeable. Bob, The spec sheet would perhaps be an answer to your questions.

Case in point, I understand modern day car cranks are made from EN30b. as far as I know Phoenix cranks and all other manufacturer in the past are made from EN40b. Because that's always been insisted on in old practises. 

The difference in machineing time on EN30b against EN40b is £200.00 a crank. If you know how to do it.

So if we followed modern car practises, who gains the £200. The manufacturer, or the customer.

Tony.

[Bob Culver]

Hi Tony
A quick look on the Net suggests EN40b is specifically suited to nitriding, which the Phoenix was/is. Presumably the basis of longevity, as nitriding is claimed to have far more effect than modest increases in u.t.s (of which the original Austin was probably not lacking.)_
Out of my territory but I would have thought with NC machines and modern tools machining costs would be much the same, unless the comparison is with a crank not subjected to nitriding. Nitriding alone is expensive.
Were Phoenix cranks ground again after nitriding, or just linished, or neither?
I suspect any non nitrided crank would be much the same as the originals. Filets could be rolled but failure can also occur at oilways.

[Stuart Giles]

Nitriding alone is expensive.
Were Phoenix cranks ground again after nitriding, or just linished, or neither?

From a chat I had with the bloke there who does the grinding at Phoenix: before Nitriding the crankpins are ground .008" oversize, after Nitriding, the pins are ground to finish size on an indexing grinder (i.e. not a Prince style follower setup) which would deal with any minor distortion during the Nitriding process. Also, the Nitriding treatment is at it hardest at .004" below the treated surface, hence the significance of the .008" diameter initial grind.

[Bob Culver]

Thanks Stuart

That is how it should be done. I was involved with Javelins for decades. The final version of reasonably reliable Laystall produced post production cranks were nitrided and were apparently finally ground. Many were later compromised by reconditoners regrinding with wrong technique and burning surface. A very few  were renitrided; usually with a linish, but I suspect some escaped this. Exact final size was a bit variable.