MDF, G Clamps, Hammers and Steam

[Phil Kingdom]

Hi Mark, A point that springs to mind is that your are replicating the car to the moment in time the photograph was taken, as racing cars evolve with time, dents, scrapes and ongoing modifications in my opinion and in racing anything the driver/ builder is not happy with would be corrected at a latter date when time or finances allow, a dent will be hammered out a rattling panel secured with a couple of extra rivets, so the is a fair bit of freedom to be had without deviating from the spirit of the car. Lets face it if it was on record the day the picture was taken the car had a misfire on No 1 cylinder you are not going to fit a faulty plug just for the sake of authenticity.

[John Mims]

The ply skins are .....  soaked in very hot water before being 'formed' around the frame. once they have dried out they become stable ply wood shells. 

Going back to your first posting, Mark, what ply you are using? I thought that all birch and marine ply is boil and water proof, so was interested to hear that you have managed to form it in this way. Do you think this process risks later delamination,or does the glue simply reset itself?

John

[Timothy P]

Hello Mark,
It sounds like doing the original justice is the main aim, staying as faithful to how she appeared in 1925 as possible, I think that is brilliant. It will be fascinating to see the panels coming together. 
It is really exciting to hear your plan of sustained competitive use. I cannot wait to see and hear it pushing on, what a sight (and sound) that'll be!
All the best

[Mark Atkinson]

Hi Mark, 
I would be inclined to do a neat and tidy job for your own benefit , but allow the body to scruff up with use.
a less than perfect paint job will help with the look.
This seems wrong to suggest doing a less than perfect job.
the build is looking great
 Cheers Colin

Hello Colin,

I have had the same thoughts as yourself, that I just cannot do a less than perfect job, however, the urge to replicate the original is proving to be the stronger emotion. The original paint job does not look to be bad in the pictures, nor is it bad on the surviving bonnet, but, while the cars name painted on it is neat in terms of the forming of the letters, looks like it was painted with thick lumpy porridge!

Regards, Mark.

[Ian Williams]

Mark, would it not be true that the name would have been added later once the car had passed form Austin to J Pares who I believe christened it Slippery Ann? I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong about any of that.

[Mark Atkinson]

Hello Mark,
It sounds like doing the original justice is the main aim, staying as faithful to how she appeared in 1925 as possible, I think that is brilliant. It will be fascinating to see the panels coming together. 
It is really exciting to hear your plan of sustained competitive use. I cannot wait to see and hear it pushing on, what a sight (and sound) that'll be!
All the best

Hello Timothy,

We are in accord, firstly in respect of how the car should look, and also about earning its keep and how it will sound. In respect of that sound, I now expect to have an exact reproduction of this element of the car; I have just had a change of tack with the engine, which as I could not locate the correct Cox Atmos type 30 carb, I had a bronze body SU ready to go. But, have now acquired a Cox which is now going onto the supercharger. It is a bit of an unknown quantity, so time will tell if it works well and is easily tuneable…..

Thank you for all your help with my picture posting problems, Mark

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Hi Mark, A point that springs to mind is that your are replicating the car to the moment in time the photograph was taken, as racing cars evolve with time, dents, scrapes and ongoing modifications in my opinion and in racing anything the driver/ builder is not happy with would be corrected at a latter date when time or finances allow, a dent will be hammered out a rattling panel secured with a couple of extra rivets, so the is a fair bit of freedom to be had without deviating from the spirit of the car. Lets face it if it was on record the day the picture was taken the car had a misfire on No 1 cylinder you are not going to fit a faulty plug just for the sake of authenticity.

Hello Phil,

I agree, but the thing is that all the lumps, bumps and misfitting panels are evident both when the car was first rolled out, and looking at pictures of the car as it progressed forwards through its race career, the original blemishes are all still evident plus the patina of use and development. So I feel that I need to capture all of that baseline, then let the car develop a whole set of new ones.
Regards, Mark

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The ply skins are .....  soaked in very hot water before being 'formed' around the frame. once they have dried out they become stable ply wood shells. 

Going back to your first posting, Mark, what ply you are using? I thought that all birch and marine ply is boil and water proof, so was interested to hear that you have managed to form it in this way. Do you think this process risks later delamination,or does the glue simply reset itself?

John

Hello John,

I think that aviation and marine grade Plywoods are a wonderful flexible material with excellent strength characteristics. I do not believe that they are subject to degradation by wetting or heating, so long as these treatments are done within acceptable parameters. I used marine grade birch ply on the car which was manufactured in Finland. I do not have any concerns about the adhesive after the wetting, it is manufactured to a set of standards which allow for just this sort of treatment. I doubt, but may be wrong, that the resin based adhesive in these plywoods flow or in any way move during the processes of heating and wetting, as the ply would also relax allowing for the materials integrity to be reduced because it would start to delaminate.

Interestingly, back in the 1930s Airspeed made aircraft using a bent ply wing spar mountings, which had a 90 degree bend, I have never read of any structural issues resulting with those widely used aircraft types

Regards, Mark.

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[quote pid='1421' dateline='1505068485']
If you're going to produce a copy of the original (and I know that's your intention, Mark) then it has to be the former. Anything else would be something different. But, there again, you know the way I think on such issues and either option is correct depending on where you're coming from. We all have our views and personal preferences and are fully entitled to them.

Incidentally, as Barry Clarke is constantly telling me, it can only be a copy, not a replica, as a replica can only be produced by the original constructor or under his/their supervision!

Looking forward to seeing the finished car.

Steve
[/quote]

Mark, personally I am in the same camp as Steve, if feel it is the true skill of a restorer to recreate the original as exactly as one can, getting the car perfect in my eyes is recreating every "flaw" in the original construction. If you can do that then you really will have reproduced the car, copy, replica whatever we call it, you will be representing the original authentically. As you say there are some excellent period pictures of this particular car, I believe your version needs to stand scrutiny alongside then.

Mark, if you have evidence for how the car appeared it seems logical to me to reproduce it. If there is no evidence then your familiarity with the source material will produce a well - considered interpretation.
It seems to me that refurbishment of a surviving car is, somehow. a different matter. Had my daughter not given me some Glenmorangie for my birthday I might be less gnomic!

I think you are doing a commendable job and I really look forward to its completion.

All the best,
Stuart

Hello Steve, Ian and Stuart,

It looks like you are in the same camp as myself with this, which is to capture the car as it was, if I am able!  Its an interesting debate to have as what the correct term is for making a car in this way with the ’technical’  data coming from diverse sources, is it a replica, a copy, a fake….? For me it is a replica and I wonder if Barry is confusing engineering with art, where only an original artist is considered capable of making a ‘replica’. I believe the correct term with an engineered product is Reverse Engineering, which is to study the parts of (something) to see how it was made and how it works. so that you can make something that is like it, which is specifically a processes of replication. I think the word ‘copy’ may in some contexts be synonymous with the word ‘replica’. But, should for instance not be used in genetics, music, legal argument or engineering. A good example of the specific use of the word ‘replica’ is in the museum world, where even the most august use replicas of original items. 
The problem with the word ‘copy’ is that it is specificaly something which may be done without understanding the original, such as making a facsimile copy of a technical document but having no concept of what the copied documents content really says or means, which is really not a good place to be with engineered items.

I would say that in making this car I am specifically engaged in a processes of replication through Reverse Engineering. I cannot know for certain what processes they applied to make each component or assembly, but I can seek to understand what they wanted to achieve, and using the available evidence, deduce the most likely. I am also deliberately using different materials, such as the wood glue. I know they did not have Aerolight in 1924/25, but have used it to ensure a more durable structure.

I think its interesting that Jaguar have not called their recent E-Type and XKSS replicas, replicas, but use the term Continuation. They are really Reverse Engineered, because Jaguar had little original technical data. They would not use the term replica, because that would imply they did not have ownership of the original technical knowledge and to use copy would imply even less ownership and perhaps a lack of design integrity, and at the end of the day, because the cars have many differences to the originals they are not copies, which would become an indefensible descriptor if litigation ever ensued.

Regards, Mark.

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Mark, would it not be true that the name would have been added later once the car had passed form Austin to J Pares who I believe christened it Slippery Ann? I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong about any of that.

Hello Ian,
Yes, it was John Pares who painted the name on the car. Interestingly, his is daughter, born after the car was named is also called Anne. Beatrice had an idea that the car was named by Arthur Waite whilst still the factories team car, but she could not recall where that had come from.

John Pares widow has his diaries, one day I hope they will reveal the whole story.

Regards, Mark.

[Timothy P]

Hello Timothy,

We are in accord, firstly in respect of how the car should look, and also about earning its keep and how it will sound. In respect of that sound, I now expect to have an exact reproduction of this element of the car; I have just had a change of tack with the engine, which as I could not locate the correct Cox Atmos type 30 carb, I had a bronze body SU ready to go. But, have now acquired a Cox which is now going onto the supercharger. It is a bit of an unknown quantity, so time will tell if it works well and is easily tuneable…..

Thank you for all your help with my picture posting problems, Mark

That is marvellous news about the carb, what a great find.
You're most welcome about the images, your photo's are just too good to miss out on. 
All the best

[Ian Williams]

Thanks Mark I don't think it matters if Waite, Pares or another unknown christened the car the name is still entirely appropriate for your recreation. And fantastic that you have found that carb, can't wait to see the engine start to come together, how far have you got down the path of engineering the distinctive blower drive ect?

[Mark Atkinson]

Thanks Mark I don't think it matters if Waite, Pares or another unknown christened the car the name is still entirely appropriate for your recreation. And fantastic that you have found that carb, can't wait to see the engine start to come together, how far have you got down the path of engineering the distinctive blower drive ect?

Hello Ian,

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, I took this a couple of months ago; whilst going through the discovery phase of just how it all needs to marry up. It was interesting to discover that the supercharger needs to sit off centre, because its position is predicated on the size of gear used. 

I am not sure it is particularly distinctive!

Regards, Mark.


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[John Mims]

I think that aviation and marine grade Plywoods are a wonderful flexible material with excellent strength characteristics. I do not believe that they are subject to degradation by wetting or heating, so long as these treatments are done within acceptable parameters. I used marine grade birch ply on the car which was manufactured in Finland. I do not have any concerns about the adhesive after the wetting, it is manufactured to a set of standards which allow for just this sort of treatment. I doubt, but may be wrong, that the resin based adhesive in these plywoods flow or in any way move during the processes of heating and wetting, as the ply would also relax allowing for the materials integrity to be reduced because it would start to delaminate.

Interestingly, back in the 1930s Airspeed made aircraft using a bent ply wing spar mountings, which had a 90 degree bend, I have never read of any structural issues resulting with those widely used aircraft types

Regards, Mark.

Thanks, Mark, very interesting. I hadn't heard of marine grade birch ply.
My local boat building timber yard stocks Baltic birch ply and tropical marine ply. I much prefer birch ply so will check whether it is marine grade.
Thanks again, John