Original Ulster for sale

[Charles P]

Hi Mike, I'm going to be awkward a disagree with you here, (but it is just my opinion, and by no means right.)

A "Standard Sports" is a very different model:


For me an "Ulster", (which we know isn't a factory term) is an EA Sports, that left the works as a complete car with the two seat body we know as the "Ulster" shape.

I can't remember when the fixation with calling them EA Sports came in but in my view they were always called Ulsters by enthusiasts, owners and the press in period and probably until fairly recently. So it's an Ulster in my book.
My car may have been the sister car of Malcolm's, although I do have conflicting photographic evidence that my A7 chassis fitted in a late 80s Vauxhall Astra. 

C

[Mike Costigan]

My Ulster is believed to have been one of two pre-production prototypes that were built for assessment by the Special Forces Section of the Duke of Wellingtons West Yorkshire Regiment , based at their HQ in the old clog factory at Mytholmroyd.

Why only 'believed', Malcolm? I thought the history of your car was well established, although I must admit I thought the WYR HQ was in a carding mill, not the clog factory. Perhaps you can confirm which is correct so that I can update my records 

[austin]

What really upsets me is when someone refers to the supercharged EA as a Super Sports, which was a different model altogether.

Or the other way round, I'm sure Tony gets it all the time with his car.

An A7 Super Sports was entered in the 1929 Irish Grand Prix by Austin. (Race was in Dublin so maybe doesn't count as an Ulster?)

[Hedd_Jones]

Once you get into the world of originality and continuous history it all can get a bit "trigger's broom". Original maybe, even though it's on the third engine and a new body was fitted 40 years ago.

Thats where the poor decisions have been made.

Lets say in the 60's you were lucky to have an 'Ulster', you did a bit of racing, had a ruck of proper spares. Perhaps you had 2 ulsters (hell!)

The rod comes out of your engine, you rob the good engine out of the other. Great. sorted.

your mate fancies an ulster, you have one with no engine, or rather one minus and engine and a poorly engine. You decide you'd rather keep the poorly engine for spares, so you find a standard engine, and sell him the 2nd car. Ok.

Then you have a prang, roll the car, the body is damaged. You buy a new one and fit that, chuck the old one in the shed.

you pack in racing. leave it all in the shed 20 years.

So you have what is basically an Ulster with a proper engine (out of another car), but with a new body. Some bloke comes round, offers you a shed load of money for it. On the basis the other bits are also likely to be valuable you keep stum.  You sell the car, keep the spares. happy days.

You also have a damaged Ulster engine. Some time later you offer this for sale, it gets snapped up.

You have a damaged body, same applies. All money in the bank all good so far. Nothing untoward.

Enthusiasts are enthusiasts, someone with a bit of engineering knowledge gets hold of the damaged engine, sorts it out. And with a new engine and appropriate bits builds an 'Ulster', using something with a chassis of the appropriate age and V5 as a basis. Hes happy as a pig in sh1t. Hes built himself the next best thing to a real Ulster, is honest about his ulster rep all good.

Perhaps someone else repairs the body, does much the same, but is short of an engine, so fits a hotted up standard job.

Other than the various owners and some of their mates know any of this. 

Crikey we now have 4 cars with ulster Pedigree.

1. A real Ulster with a new body
2. A real Ulster with a incorrect engine.
3. A replica Ulster with a dogs danglies engine.
4. A replica Ulster with an old repaired body

None of this matters really, it only a problem when someone tells porky pies, generally once the cars have passed through a few hands and then some sort of salesman does the 'big up' to sell. Quite often to some fool with more money than sense.

So lets take this car. is it No 1 or No 3?.

Dare I suggest the value of 1 would be more than 3. The seller is clever enough not to say its No1 (presumably because there is no real evidence to suggest it is no1), but implies it isn't No 3 by presenting poor evidence it could be No1.

All I will say is never trust a salesman (or a journalist)

Couple of hours with some scotchbright and diesel, followed by half a day out with a haxsaw and spanners, and the other haf a day with some black paint it would be a very nice car.

[Mike Costigan]

Nicely summarised, Hedd.

As you say, at the end of the day it's down to how knowledgeable and honest an owner/seller is, and how gullible a buyer is; and whether it really matters anyway. Which is why people like Jon need to keep asking the questions! It may, indeed will, prove embarrassing to some owners, but it's the only way to protect innocent buyers in the future.

As for the Irish car, I'm inclined to believe it comes under your Category 1, but where has it been for the last seventy years? It does seem strange that those who know about these cars haven't come across it before.

[Steve Jones]

A well known Ulster owner who competes with us in Sprints and Hillclimbs has a very nice and very quick car. Whilst he built it up in fairly recent times, he will tell anyone that asks that the car was actualy crashed at Brooklands.

In that, he is entirely correct. Someone reversed into it in the Brooklands Tesco Car Park in Weybridge a few years ago!!

Steve

[JonE]

Looking at Hedd's point, a more positive thing is linking 1 and 4 and 2 and 3; those cars are twinned/linked through circumstance and knowing that makes them both a bit more special. Like GW82 and whatever fast thing GW's original engine is now in.
It's just like lego.
You buy a kit, make it up.
It gets broken up and thrown into the big lego bin.
Someone makes creative lego constructions (with 10 other kits which have been through the same cycle).
Sometime later, someone geeky decides they are going to work out what all the kits were and repopulate all the bits.
Or if the lego specials are now pretty cool in their own right (or if the person is bigger than you), not.

[Colin Morgan]

Personally, I am happy driving around in my Austin Broom (never been 'restored' but has either an original replacement body or an original replacement chassis depending on how you look at it) without worrying that I am harming a piece of automotive history, but perhaps Steve Hodgson of SMH Services - as mentioned in the seller's ad - might know a bit about this particular Ulster?

[Tony Johns]

Very interesting to read the various since I shared the photo of the Ulster with a locally made body and the reason why they came to Australia without Factory bodies. So I thought I would add a few more comments.

Impossible to confirm how many sports model Austins were imported to Australia, one important difference with the UK is that a registration number plate does not stay with a car for life, if you forget to renew the registration the previous number is cancelled and the car is issued with a new number. Also we do not have access to many of the old registration records.

At least one 1924 Sports with factory body was imported to South Australia, with records of the first owner and photographs of the car competing at Sellicks Beach. Another South Australian photo on file shows Mrs Young seated in he Gordon England Cup Austin.

Two Super Sports came to Australia, the first one of the prototypes was the car Capt. Arthur Waite used to win the first Australian Grand Prix at Phillip Island in March 1928. I once owned the engine from this car and there are S.P. numbers cast on the aluminium castings. This engine is now with Graeme Steinfort in the replica car built by Bill Sheehan. The other Super Sports was imported to West Australia by Len O'Hara as a new car.

There is no record of the exact numbers of Gordon England 'Brooklands' models and Ulsters imported, so a best guess would less than 10 Brookands and perhaps up to 20 Ulsters.

Re calling them Ulsters and not EA Sports, The earliest newspaper report I have is dated 6 May 1931 and shows NSW driver Keith Dalziel with his new Ulster with the body he built himself.

If anybody is seriously interested in learning more about the Australian connection and seeing photographs then this link to the Autosport Nostalgia Forum and search for austin-seven-racing-in-australia-from-1928     

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Very interesting to read the various since I shared the photo of the Ulster with a locally made body and the reason why they came to Australia without Factory bodies. So I thought I would add a few more comments.

Impossible to confirm how many sports model Austins were imported to Australia, one important difference with the UK is that a registration number plate does not stay with a car for life, if you forget to renew the registration the previous number is cancelled and the car is issued with a new number. Also we do not have access to many of the old registration records.

At least one 1924 Sports with factory body was imported to South Australia, with records of the first owner and photographs of the car competing at Sellicks Beach. Another South Australian photo on file shows Mrs Young seated in he Gordon England Cup Austin.

Two Super Sports came to Australia, the first one of the prototypes was the car Capt. Arthur Waite used to win the first Australian Grand Prix at Phillip Island in March 1928. I once owned the engine from this car and there are S.P. numbers cast on the aluminium castings. This engine is now with Graeme Steinfort in the replica car built by Bill Sheehan. The other Super Sports was imported to West Australia by Len O'Hara as a new car.

There is no record of the exact numbers of Gordon England 'Brooklands' models and Ulsters imported, so a best guess would less than 10 Brookands and perhaps up to 20 Ulsters.

Re calling them Ulsters and not EA Sports, The earliest newspaper report I have is dated 6 May 1931 and shows NSW driver Keith Dalziel with his new Ulster with the body he built himself.

If anybody is seriously interested in learning more about the Australian connection and seeing photographs then this link to the Autosport Nostalgia Forum and search for austin-seven-racing-in-australia-from-1928     

[Erich]

This thread about originality has reminded me of the case of the LeMans Bentley which sold some years ago. I don't recall the exact facts, but remember that the new owner sued the seller after discovering that the car wasn't entirely original. The seller was able to produce one of the mechanics who worked on the car. He was able to to describe the various parts which had been replaced, including part of the chassis, I think. In the end, the court ruled that as much of the car was indeed one of Bentleys raced at LeMans, albeit with changes, modifications, repairs, the new owner lost the case.

My Ulster has its original engine, chassis and floor. The body aft the scuttle was built during the late eighties, after the original body was falling apart. It had apparently been raced pretty hard over the years. I would have loved to have the original body, warts and all, but the car is mostly an Ulster in many ways.

Erich in Mukilteo