Original Ulster for sale

[Edgar Lowe]

With hindsight there have been many poor decisions made in the restoration of historic cars.

I'm not talking about what went on when the cars were still being used as 'current' cars in period, but subsequently once the historic nature of the cars was understood.

I had understood that the number of 'real' sports with continuous known history could be counted on one hand, and were well known and thus the most valuable. Whearas there are many others with some degree of pedigree, but the right parts, or a good many of the right parts. Some more with some right parts and some or no pedigree, then out and out replicas of varying quality.

Value Highest to lowest in the same Order.

What im really saying is the high end ulster game is not that different to what the Bugatti mob were up to. Some 'Ulsters' are pretty pukka, they are what they are no argument. Some are 'built' from a pukka engine. some from a 'pukka' chassis, Some from a pukka body. Some have more pukka bits than others. No doubt some builders have even been to look at what ledgers there are, or studied the chassis register and took a view what number to stamp on the chassis, or what might be a likely reg number (OF seems popular).

I guess the dogs danglies is a blown engine like Tonys, a replica blown engine like Charles has and is building probably 2nd followed by the genuine unblown versions etc. I guess all for discussion.

If your in the market you need to take a view and pay what you think. If your not (like me), its all hot air.

What is clear however is that generally, that less notice is being taken of fact and originality. Go to Goodwood, and while there are real cars with very real history. Most of the ERA's for example with continuous racing history. But on the other hand there are a lot of vehicles with made up and known false histories presented as something they are not. Even in VSCC circles there seems to be a fad now to build some sort of aero engined monster, find and engine, an obscure foreign radiator (with badge), then put that on the front of what amounts to a small truck chassis and bingo. ''Its a 1915 Giraffe Special''. Cough cough (Bullshit).

Hedd, I’m in full agreement with everything you have said.

At various historic events these days, I spend most of the time trying to find genuine cars...try and find a nicely patinated Riley Falcon these days...it seems most have been turned into race replicas or sports specials...or in my view, hot rods.

This particular Ulster/special has a few nice bits though and as Tony points out demand will crank up the price, particularly amongst those who really don’t care about automotive history.

100% accurate assessment

[Tony Johns]

Mike has mentioned the majority of Ulsters that came to Australia when new in the early 1930's were shipped as rolling chassis and fitted with local bodywork to avoid Import duties on complete cars. This photo is an example of a Melbourne built body and I would be happy to have it in my garage. Not sure which category the experts would place it in?
The 10 stud supercharged Ulster I restored and used to own, was assembled with a Rolt body built in 1974. The car is still here and has been on the road for 47 years so again not sure where it would sit with the experts?

[Mike Costigan]

A wonderful photo, Tony. As far a I am concerned, that qualifies as a genuine 'Ulster', since that is the name everyone knows for the standard Sports model. Perhaps we should refer to it as something else, maybe an 'Australian Ulster', after all a Speedy with an Arrow body will be referred to as a Competition Arrow rather than a Speedy...

If your Rolt-bodied car started life as an 'Ulster' then I don't see why it should lose that identity just because its body has been replaced; many years ago when I restored my 'Ulster' I went to great lengths to preserve as much of the original body as possible, but it still ended up with a whole side-panel of new metal - does that make it a 'Half-Ulster'?

[JonE]

Mike has mentioned the majority of Ulsters that came to Australia when new in the early 1930's were shipped as rolling chassis and fitted with local bodywork to avoid Import duties on complete cars. This photo is an example of a Melbourne built body and I would be happy to have it in my garage. Not sure which category the experts would place it in?
The 10 stud supercharged Ulster I restored and used to own, was assembled with a Rolt body built in 1974. The car is still here and has been on the road for 47 years so again not sure where it would sit with the experts?

Wonderful photo. In the case of the Aus cars I've asked before if we can identify/review all those rolling chassis cars by chassis number, confidentially if necessary, as it would be interesting to see how they fit in the progression of the ledgered identities - and inform the possible batches/clusters where the ledgers are gone. 

The engines also have interesting patterns - batches again all the way through till the end of Sports production in 1937 - so the more we know about the serial numbers and stamping locations on axles, gearboxes and engines, the more interesting the cars become and the more chance of identifying 'lost' parts. Some Ulster engines have recently been able to go back to the original body/chassis, for instance...  or it makes possibilities for pairs of cars being 'linked' by birth - and later use.

[Malcolm Parker]

   
The body on my Ulster rep (maker unknown, possibly Rochdale Motor Panels) is at least 60 years old so is probably older than most 'original' Ulsters.  I rather like having a car that looks as if it was made in 1930 rather than brand spanking new.   
As for 'batch numbers', if you start clinically studying the chassis, engine, car and body numbers of the surviving 'original' Ulsters the exercise will throw up more questions than answers.
The truth is that the Ulster was always primarily used as a competition car and like any such car, various parts were swapped about as and when necessary either to keep them running or to enhance their performance.
It is easy to create a 'history' for a car, and once something either appears in print or God forbid on the internet, then it must be the gospel truth.
My Ulster is believed to have been one of two pre-production prototypes that were built for assessment by the Special Forces Section of the Duke of Wellingtons West Yorkshire Regiment , based at their HQ in the old clog factory at Mytholmroyd.

[Hedd_Jones]

Mike has mentioned the majority of Ulsters that came to Australia when new in the early 1930's were shipped as rolling chassis and fitted with local bodywork to avoid Import duties on complete cars. This photo is an example of a Melbourne built body and I would be happy to have it in my garage. Not sure which category the experts would place it in?
The 10 stud supercharged Ulster I restored and used to own, was assembled with a Rolt body built in 1974. The car is still here and has been on the road for 47 years so again not sure where it would sit with the experts?

Wonderful photo. In the case of the Aus cars I've asked before if we can identify/review all those rolling chassis cars by chassis number, confidentially if necessary, as it would be interesting to see how they fit in the progression of the ledgered identities - and inform the possible batches/clusters where the ledgers are gone. 

The engines also have interesting patterns - batches again all the way through till the end of Sports production in 1937 - so the more we know about the serial numbers and stamping locations on axles, gearboxes and engines, the more interesting the cars become and the more chance of identifying 'lost' parts. Some Ulster engines have recently been able to go back to the original body/chassis, for instance...  or it makes possibilities for pairs of cars being 'linked' by birth - and later use.

All good stuff Jon. 

You will run up against problems in some circles doing that, which is a shame. But that is life. 

There are certainly patterns to be seen even in the limited info availible in the register. I've probably concluded one of the crankcases in the garage is the original from the RP. Its just a pity there is a hole in the side (which I remember happening when I was 3). 

You can also work out the relationship between car number and chassis number at various points with a fair degree if certainty. This is sometimes helpfull, particularly when you have a car that is registered with the DVLA, but no V5 is present. And the chassis number youve quoted isnt what the DVLA have (so you then try the car number...). This has worked for me twice now.

[austin]

Hi Mike, I'm going to be awkward a disagree with you here, (but it is just my opinion, and by no means right.)

A "Standard Sports" is a very different model:



For me an "Ulster", (which we know isn't a factory term) is an EA Sports, that left the works as a complete car with the two seat body we know as the "Ulster" shape.

The cars that went to Australia as rolling chassis in my mind are still 2 seater sports, (and no less interesting to me) but it's not something I would call an Ulster.

Once you get into the world of originality and continuous history it all can get a bit "trigger's broom". Original maybe, even though it's on the third engine and a new body was fitted 40 years ago.

A wonderful photo, Tony. As far a I am concerned, that qualifies as a genuine 'Ulster', since that is the name everyone knows for the standard Sports model. Perhaps we should refer to it as something else, maybe an 'Australian Ulster', after all a Speedy with an Arrow body will be referred to as a Competition Arrow rather than a Speedy...

If your Rolt-bodied car started life as an 'Ulster' then I don't see why it should lose that identity just because its body has been replaced; many years ago when I restored my 'Ulster' I went to great lengths to preserve as much of the original body as possible, but it still ended up with a whole side-panel of new metal - does that make it a 'Half-Ulster'?

My Ulster is believed to have been one of two pre-production prototypes that were built for assessment by the Special Forces Section of the Duke of Wellingtons West Yorkshire Regiment , based at their HQ in the old clog factory at Mytholmroyd.

Brilliant, that is how legends are made to good to not be correct!

[JonE]

As for 'batch numbers', if you start clinically studying the chassis, engine, car and body numbers of the surviving 'original' Ulsters the exercise will throw up more questions than answers.

And after 100 years, what else IS there to do but ask new questions (and drive around a bit)? That's what makes us human!

[Malcolm Parker]

As for 'batch numbers', if you start clinically studying the chassis, engine, car and body numbers of the surviving 'original' Ulsters the exercise will throw up more questions than answers.

And after 100 years, what else IS there to do but ask new questions (and drive around a bit)? That's what makes us human!

I agree, Jon.  Asking questions does however make a lot of people very upset!

[Mike Costigan]

That's the problem, Austin, both models were catalogued by AMCo as 'Sports', so we now need to differentiate between them. I can accept . your terminology for the early car as Standard Sports (with capital letters) although I prefer the term 50-mph Sports. Calling the later car an EA Sports is fine, but we just have to accept that Ulster is the favoured name by most people. What really upsets me is when someone refers to the supercharged EA as a Super Sports, which was a different model altogether.