Anti Freeze

[Ian Williams]

I would not go near waterless coolants unless you want your engine to run a dam sight hotter than it is currently, it may not boil but it is nowhere near as good at transferring heat.

[GK5268]

Well spotted. Although they do say "We normally do not suggest using Evans Waterless Coolant in this application, although we have had success in the past." Has anyone tried this stuff, or a similar waterless product, in a seven?

My Uncle likes to fiddle with his car (and I have to sort it out when it goes wrong...) and this is what happened when he used Evans Waterless Coolant... Not suitable for a thermosyphon system, he also had problems of it boiling (which is 180-degrees C) in another engine of his, I witnessed this happen.

   

I sent a sample of the sludge to Evans for them to analyse and this was their reply:

Many thanks for sending the sample of the sludge into us.

We have tested the sample in our lab and have found that there are iron deposits in the sludge,. In the attached photos, you will see that we first tested just the brown sludgy fluid which then turned a shade of purple which shows that there is iron sediment in the sludge, and then when we added one of the gritty deposits the test fluid turns a darker shade of purple, suggesting that the larger particles in there are indeed iron fragments.

Can I please ask for how long the Classic Cool 180 has been present in the system of the Austin 7?

Can you also confirm that the chemical cleaner used to remove rust and scale was indeed drained and flushed out thoroughly? The reason for this is because the use of Evans would not cause these iron deposits that are seen in the sample, the only way that they would remain in the system is if there was a portion of the chemical agent used was remaining in the system before Evans was installed. After using any form of chemical cleaner that is designed to remove rust and loose scale, a full and thorough flush through with water would normally be carried out prior to installing any form of coolant/antifreeze, be it Evans or any standard automotive 50-50 mixture. 

I must also stress at this point that it clearly states on our website on the Classic Cool 180 and Vintage Cool 180 pages, as well as the accessible product information sheets, that Evans is not suitable for use in thermo-syphon systems where no pump is present. These systems rely on the use of water and convection to gain a good enough flow.

The block & head were all thoroughly cleaned prior to Uncle using this product (I didn't even know that he had done this until afterwards), I did his engine at the same time as I did mine, went through the same process and were thoroughly flushed - I know this as I did this myself. Uncle initially used anti-freeze after his engine was cleaned & then he decided to use Evans, any residue of the chemical cleaners would have been removed as part of this. 

I provided further information to Evans & posed questions, they never bothered to reply.

It seemed to me that the internals of Uncle's engine were continuing to corrode and that some sort of reaction had occurred using the Evans product. The engine & block have all been cleaned again (by me) and we are now using again traditional anti-freeze and that was last year and no problems since.

Quite why the Evans product is unsuited for an engine that has thermosyphon circulation beats me, coolant movement still occurs and cast-iron is the same as with any other cast-iron engine. Evans themselves have not explained why this would be the case.

I used traditional anti-freeze all the time in my system and this remains clean and never any hint of sludge.

It looks like Evans Waterless Coolant is some sort of snake oil, it is also expensive. Uncle is now leaving the mechanical stuff to me...

[Chris KC]

Andrew, anti-freeze is a consumable, just the same as oil or brake fluid. Most folks get a fairly good innings out of it - but after 2 or 3 years it really wants replacing.

Whilst I thoroughly understand thrifty instincts, it's the (disposable) fluid which keeps your cooling system in good nick for years to come.

Chris, it doesn't seem acceptable to just replace it every couple of years. Using up natural resources, lots of processing and transport, then how do we dispose of it? If you google 'dispose of antifreeze' it seems that many people can't find a solution.

Frequent changing of oil and brake fluid also bothers me. My last 'modern' we had the same brake fluid in for 17 years, and changed the engine oil every 20,000 miles. Probably people will say this was wrong, but it saved a lot of resources.

On the subject of oil Andrew, I don't follow 1930's recommendations - I'm using modern multigrade oil and a full-flow filter and I change it once a year (in the Seven) at most.

As far as anti-freeze is concerned, then simply don't use it - I have never used anti-freeze in an Austin Seven, they were designed to be filled with water. However in a couple of decades time expect to find that the cylinder block and perhaps the radiator are no longer usable (the aluminium parts long before that). Once I discovered this for myself I started using a corrosion inhibitor - it's a cupful of liquid every year or two, hardly extravagant. Especially when balanced against the cost (financial and environmental) of replacing your engine and cooling system parts.

Lastly the brake fluid - if like 99% of cars in the UK it was an ethylene glycol based (DOT3 or 4) fluid, it is hygroscopic; which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere. Typically the uptake is about 1.5% by volume each year. After about the third year of service the absorption of water is enough to reduce the boiling point of the fluid to levels way below the rated specification (boiling point) of new fluid; by this time the BP of a DOT4 fluid is lower than that of new DOT3. The chemical corrosion inhibitor pack is also exhausted and your safety-critical brake components are being damaged by corrosion. All good until the split second when you need peak brake performance in an emergency and it is no longer there. If you think a pint of brake fluid is a waste, stop and think about the environmental cost of having to replace a crashed car (let's not even think about the occupants...)

[Dave Mann]

        Interestingly the studs are rust free. Personally I've used Bluecol 50% mix for the last two decades with good results although it taxes my patience with it's ability to leak. All of our cars have zinc sacrificial anodes in their heads for the last decade with no corrosion visible so I've just modified a block with a zinc sacrificial anode. I did try cleaning a block and head with Bilt Hamber's Deox C being circulated the opposite way and while it removed a pile of crud I can't see if I've removed all the crud.

[Tony Griffiths]

"Lastly the brake fluid - if like 99% of cars in the UK it was an ethylene glycol-based (DOT3 or 4) fluid, it is hygroscopic; which means it absorbs water from the atmosphere. Typically the uptake is about 1.5% by volume each year. After about the third year of service the absorption of water is enough to reduce the boiling point of the fluid to levels way below the rated specification (boiling point) of new fluid;"
It might be worth adding what the effect of boiling is - it produces bubbles of gas that, unlike liquid, can be compressed. The result is that your brake pedal can go down to the floor or has to be pumped to maintain any semblance of stopping power.

[Chris KC]

Indeed so Tony. The great majority of drivers will have run into something before they figure out what has happened.