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+--- Thread: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice (/showthread.php?tid=9417)
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Chris KC - 13-06-2024
A few disjointed comments... (sorry)
I was taught that white spirit is for cleaning brushes, not for thinning paint; PPA or Owatrol are good products for helping enamel flow. Craftmaster is beautiful paint, but (like most modern enamels of my acquaintance) you have to work fast to keep a wet edge going, and to achieve that it needs to be applied fairly generously. I dare say Mr. Wilson knows what he's talking about but I have no experience of his product or firm. I would add that white spirit tends to kill the gloss, and some might understandably consider that desirable.
Enamel paint is not suitable for cutting back and polishing - not if it is applied as was intended by the maker. There are many posts on the internet about rolling thin coats and cutting back Rustoleum - but you must ask yourself what standard of finish is achieved, and how long it lasts.
When I recently tried to sand my RP back to bare metal I gave up because the base coats (original, I think) were incredibly tough! I contented myself with taking off the gloss coats (over-painted in the 50's or 60's, I'd guess), keying the surface and priming over.
I feel fairly confident that spraying was the general norm for OE by the time Austin started building the Seven, though brush painting lingered in the aftermarket for a fair while.
Paint 'flowing' was a thing though, and might well have been used for certain Austin parts. There were even mass production systems for effectively hosing paint over the car and catching the run-off in a drip tray, where it was pumped back up to the header tank. Of course the paint was especially formulated for the task. It's not so bizarre when you consider the traditional method of coach painting - 1 man applied a very generous coat of paint, and a second man followed along behind him laying off i.e. smoothing it out and removing the excess. The aim was to apply a coat just short of the amount which would run or sag.
"Motor Car and Coach Painting for Private, Commercial and Mass Output" by Charles Oliver is a good source for anyone very keen to know more, though it slightly pre-dates the A7 era I think. The author observed that even show cars of the time often exhibited flaws in their paintwork. I'm inclined to think budget cars of the 20's were somewhat less than 'immaculate', and restorations look better with a slightly rough and ready paint job than one which cost many thousands to perfect.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - JonE - 13-06-2024
Peter - did the brown primer almost look like Auto Brown - i.e. was it a polishable layer? I've been looking at the 1932 cards (or rather the ATDC report on them) trying to get more evidence on the blues which are sorely missing. The trouble is, there are match suggestions given (the one for Opal blue equates to RAL Fir Green - of which I get no discernable blueness in) whilst it is abundantly clear that those earlier cards have darkened! It would be great to learn more about the Postan "Seven" Blue and Opal, neither of which have any old fashioned percentage constituents recorded. Looking at the early make-up of Royal Blue ("95% Prussian Blue") I suspect that the 1936/9 Royal cards could well be darker too. I just screen colour matched what was evident but ended up using 400ml of "Superblack" to dull the litre of Dark Teal down but probably ended up with something which WAS Royal in that it largely looks RAL Prussian Blue!
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Adam Brown - 13-06-2024
On the point of cutting back and polishing enamels - don't.
It does sometimes work but more often than not it will result in a dulling of the paint. It almost sort of melts the surface for want of a better explanation.
2k and Cell cut and polish as they are rock hard. Enamels have a degree of flex and so don't take well to the process.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Lowespeed - 14-06-2024
My Father was a young pre-war apprentice and did tell me that the wings were dipped in to a vat on a conveyor system. He was more facinated by the sight of the wings moving along into the vat than the actual process.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Malcolm Parker - 14-06-2024
I was told by my late pal Stan Whinham that the steel used for car wings in the 1920's was 'pickled' which I think means it was treated with vinegar or similar. This gave the metal an almost black appearance. The pickling presumably gave the steel a surface that would be more resistant to corrosion. Similar to the charring of a wooden post to make it less prone to rot. Stan also referred to 'citrus enameling' but I think he meant vitreous enameling!
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - andrew34ruby - 14-06-2024
(13-06-2024, 10:20 AM)JonE Wrote: - did the brown primer almost look like Auto Brown -
I had thought that every coat of paint on my early Ruby was black, but during repairs today I removed one of the bonnet side handles. This was rivetted on, and removal revealed original factory paint on the bonnet. Scraping off a thin coat of black, there was a very dark brown. Presumably the handle was then rivetted on and the final coat of gloss black put on after the rivetting.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Peter Naulls - 14-06-2024
Jon, I would have said the brown was more of a dull brown primer (possibly etch primer?) rather than anything which would take a shine. Andrew's findings were exactly the same as mine; primer but no gloss under the bonnet catches. Current day cellulose does not stick to steel without a primer, I'd imagine that's always been the case.
Some of the press photos in the gallery pages give a good idea of the standard of finish. On the early cars it is very evident that the wings were shinier than the bodies - less apparent on the Ruby era cars where finishes seem to have improved no end.
The attached might clarify a few points, rather low res but just about legible.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - JonE - 14-06-2024
Very interesting to read.
I couldn't remove riveted handles - a step too far - but removing the bolted stops for the bonnet latches revealed a different colour each side... the brown definitely takes a polish, as does the charcoaly blue/black.
With a late car, I'm wondering whether (a) its primer, or (b) its been a runout sale and thus repainted... from brown. There is a lot round the handles too - what are people's thoughts [who found brown or black] on primer - or not? Ledgers show 'blue'.
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - Chris KC - 14-06-2024
Well here's what I found when I rubbed a spot down on my RP. Not sure what it reveals other than a (literally) colourful history...
RE: Enamel and Cellulose paint history/practice - JonE - 15-06-2024
This worth watching from 32.40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7ynuqJuG5w
There is painting... but lots more!