+- Austinsevenfriends (https://www.austinsevenfriends.co.uk/forum)
+-- Forum: Austin Seven Friends Forum (https://www.austinsevenfriends.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=1)
+--- Forum: Forum chat... (https://www.austinsevenfriends.co.uk/forum/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay (/showthread.php?tid=3093)
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Edgar Lowe - 15-07-2019
Denis Jenkinson said: No Mention of word Replica
"Original"
Almost impossible to find anything in this category. It would have to
have been put in store the moment it was completed. Possibly the
Trossi-Monaco special in the Biscaretti Museum comes as close to an
original racing car as it is possible to get.
The “old-car” industry frequently uses degrees of originality, such as
“nearly original”, “almost original”, even “completely original”, but all
such descriptions are meaningless as they cannot be quantified. A racing
car that has only had a new set of tyres and a change of sparking plugs
since it was completed is no longer “original”. Many components have
remained “original”, such as gearboxes, cylinder heads, axles and so on,
and reproduction parts are made to “original drawings” and “original
material specification”, but this does not make them “original” parts, nor
does a complete car built from such components qualify as “original”,
regardless of what the constructor or owner might think. Such a car is
nothing more than a “reproduction” or “facsimile”.
"Genuine"
This is a much more practical description for an old or historic car and
can be applied to most racing cars that have had active and continuous
lives, with no occasions when they “disappeared into limbo” or changed
their character in any way. Most E.R.A.s come into this category as they
have been raced continuously, which has meant the replacing of
numerous components as they wore out, but the car itself has never
been lost from view, nor has its basic character and purpose been
altered over the years. Even such a well-known E.R.A. as “Romulus” is
not “original”, as it has been repainted, reupholstered, new tyres have
been fitted and new components have been used to rebuild the engine;
but it is unquestionably “Genuine”.
"Authentic"
This term is used to describe a racing car that has led a chequered
career, through no fault of its own, but has never disappeared from
view. The “Entity”, which is best described as the sum of the parts, has
always been around in some form or other, but has now been put back
to the specification that it was in, either when it was first built, or some
subsequent known point in its history. An example would be an old
Grand Prix car that was converted into a road-going sports car when its
useful racing life was over, over the years having the racing engine
replaced by a touring version, and eventually being allowed to
deteriorate. It is then rescued and rebuilt as the Grand Prix car, with its
racing engine replaced, but with new radiator, fuel tank and oil tank,
new wheels made, new bodywork, instrument panel, seat, upholstery
and so on, all of which were missing. The “Entity” that started life as the
Grand Prix car never actually disappeared, so the end result of all the
labours can justifiably be described as “Authentic”. There is no question
of it being “Original”, and to describe it as genuine would be unfair to its
sister cars that remained Grand Prix cars all their lives, even though
such things as radiator, fuel tank, seat and so on had to be replaced due
to the ravages of time and use.
"Resurrection"
Some racing cars, when they reached the end of their useful life, were
abandoned and gradually dismantled as useful bits were taken off to use
on other cars. Eventually insufficient of the car remained to form an
acceptable entity, even though most of the components were still
scattered about. There have been numerous cases where such
components that still existed were gathered up to form the basis of a
new car; a new chassis frame and new body were required and, from the
bare bones of the ashes or the original, another one appears. It cannot
claim to be the original car, and certainly not a genuine car, nor an
authentic car. At best it is a “Resurrection” from the dead, or from the
graveyard.
"Re-construction"
This can stem from a single original component, or a collection of
components from a variety of cars, but usually there is very little left of
the original racing car, except its history and its character. From these
small particles a complete new car is built, its only connection with the
original car being a few components and the last-known pile of rust left
over when decomposition set in.
"Facsimile"
Purely and simply a racing car that now exists when there never was an
original. If a factory built four examples of a particular Grand Prix model,
for instance, and there are now five in existence, then the fifth can only
be a facsimile, fake, clone, copy or reproduction. If the fifth car was built
by the same people or factory who built the four original cars, then at
best it could be a “Replica” of the four original cars, but such a situation
is very unlikely. There are many reasons for building a facsimile, from
sheer enthusiasm for a particular model to simple avarice, and it is
remarkable how many facsimiles have been given a small piece of
genuine history in order to try to authenticate the fake, and thus raise its
value.
Facsimiles have been built of just about everything from Austin to
Wolseley, some being so well made that it is difficult to tell them from
the originals. Some owners have been known to remain strangely silent
about the origins of their cars when they have been mistaken for the real
thing. Other facsimiles have been declared openly and honestly by the
constructors, such as the facsimile that has been built of an A/B-type
E.R.A., or the series of facsimiles of 250F Maseratis that have been built.
The trouble usually starts when the cars are sold to less scrupulous
owners, who first convince themselves they have bought a genuine car,
and then try to convince the rest of the sporting world. The disease is
very prevalent in the world of museums, on the assumption that the
paying public are gullible.
"Special"
This name applies to one-off cars that are the product of the fertile brain
of the constructor. It is probably true to say that no special has ever
been finished! It may be finished sufficiently to allow it to race, but
inevitably the constructor will be planning further modifications while he
is still racing it. If the special builder ever says his car is finished, it
will usually indicate that it is now obsolete and he is starting on a new one.
The rebuilding or restoring of a special to use as an Historic racing car,
by someone who is not the original constructor, can mean either that the
car is rebuilt to a known point in time that appeals to the new owner, or
he can continue the process of development where the originator left off.
The nice thing about specials is that they are a law unto themselves and
do not need to be put into any sort of category. A special can be totally
accepted as “Genuine, authentic, reconstructed or facsimile”.
"Duplication"
This is a disease which started many years ago within the ranks of the
lovers of Bugatti cars. Unscrupulous people dismantled a Grand Prix
Bugatti into its component parts and with the right hand sold an
incomplete car as a “basket case” and with the left hand sold another
incomplete car as a “box of bits”. The two buyers eventually found
suitable second-hand components to replace the missing parts, or had
new bits made, and we ended up with two Grand Prix Bugattis where
there has only been one. Naturally each owner claims “authenticity” for
his complete car. The Bugatti Owners Club – and the majority of its
members – strongly disapprove of this practice.
Unfortunately the disease has spread to many other makes, especially
those that were built in large numbers. At best this whole business
borders on fraud.
"Destroyed"
A simple enough word that applies to a racing car that has been involved
in an accident or fire in which no tangible components are left in
recognizable shape or form.
"Scrapped"
This usually applies to a car that is taken out of service by a factory team
and either deliberately destroyed so that nothing is left, or useful
components are removed and put into store and the rest is thrown on
the scrap heap for crushing or melting down. There have been cases of a
chassis frame being rescued from the scrap heap and used to re-create a
new car. In no way can the new car be described as genuine. If the
factory scrapped a car and removed its number from their records, than
that car has gone for ever, and a nebulous collection of old and new
components can hardly justify the claiming of the scrapped number.
"Broken up"
Similarly, if a factory records that a car has been broken up, it should
mean exactly that. It has gone for good.
"Converted"
There have been examples of a Type A model being converted by the
factory into a Type B and then a Type C. The particular car as an entity
never disappeared, though it might be difficult to recognize that the Type
C was once a Type A. It is virtually impossible to re-convert such a car
back to a Type A, no matter how desirable it may be. The perfect
example is the E.R.A. that started life as R4B in 1936, was converted to
R4C in 1937, and then into R4D in 1938 and was much modified again in
1948. The car still exists as R4D, with a well-documented continuous
history, and is as genuine as they come but it can never revert back to
R4B."
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - David Stepney - 15-07-2019
On the definitions given above, it would appear that this 'doctors coupe' is a special. i.e. a "bitsa".
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Reckless Rat - 15-07-2019
Most definitely, and the "Doctor's Coupé" is somewhat Marmite IMHO, but to each his own. Every mother's child is beautiful even if they have a face that broke the ugly stick.
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Howard Wright - 15-07-2019
Hi All
I think the word "evocation" is a posh way of saying what this is!
Howard
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Tony Griffiths - 15-07-2019
From a recent article:
"Imitations, replicas and recreations have polluted the classic car world for decades, and while 3D printing, paint matching and fabric development become increasingly advanced, so too do these knock-off historic racers.
Replica Ferrari GTOs, which are often cobbled together from new parts and second-hand components sourced from donor cars such as the cheaper GTE, can be so convincing that even the most knowledgeable experts have trouble differentiating them from the ‘real deal’. A recent court case in Italy purports to put a stop to this practice, but I'm not so sure. Despite the self-satisfied purring from Maranello, this new ruling changes nothing.
The replicas already exist in their dozens (as far as we know) and will continue to do so for as long as there is a demand for objects that look like more valuable objects. The court case shuts the scuderia door, well after the prancing horse has bolted. It’s an open secret in the classic car world that replicas get passed off as the real thing. Grids at top historic races will often feature unnervingly accurate copies rather than the genuine articles, allowing their ultra-wealthy owners to bask in the glory of racing their expensive cars without any risk to the priceless bodywork. GTO owners (for example) are reluctant to risk a million pounds of panel damage from a minor bump. But if it looks like a GTO, drives like a GTO, and sounds like a GTO, does it matter? Well, yes. The assembled crowds at Goodwood, for example, deserve to see – and indeed have paid to see – the real articles. If the Louvre replaced the Mona Lisa with a convincing copy, or the Galleria dell'Accademia di Firenze knocked out a papier-mache David, visitors would be incensed, even if they themselves were unable to tell the difference. These works are worth more than the sum of their parts.
Thousands of people pay small fortunes to pass through this tunnel every year, but how many know that some of the headline cars are replicas? There are of course those who gleefully refuse to acknowledge this value, and no doubt are preparing to comment below to that effect. These are the same people who laugh at a £10m painting or £1m bottle of whisky. They chuckle at tourists queuing to see a sculpture you can see on Google Images, or paying for a concert you could watch on YouTube. But conflating cost with value is one of the most poisonous mindsets of our time, and contributes to a pernicious superficiality taking hold of the classic car world. More trusting car lovers may doubt allegations that have been brought against beloved classic car events such as the Goodwood Revival, preferring instead to believe that their ticket prices buy them the right to see the genuine cars as advertised in the programme. Unfortunately for these enthusiasts and spectators, experts regularly report replicas or ‘recreation’ cars, including GTOs, on track at Revival. One such machine is said to have only been completed in the past decade. This in itself is no crime as the cars are entered at the discretion of the organisers and the event runs to FIA Appendix K regulations, which permits accurate recreations to take part in historic motoring events. It does seem rather unfair on those who have forked out vast sums of money to come and see the cars, though. One would hope that a ruling such as this one will herald a new era of scrutiny, in which more stringent examinations of cars are carried out before they are carried off as genuine articles at events and races. It would not be particularly onerous to carry out the requisite checks in the Goodwood car park next weekend, but there’s obviously not a great deal of appetite for doing so. It’s in nobody’s interest, beside the paying public, to ensure that the genuine articles are present; Ferrari wants to protect its customers, event organisers want to sell tickets, and multi-millionaires want, well, whatever it is multi-millionaires want."
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - JonE - 15-07-2019
So presumably the 1926 bit is just the logbook? And a 1934 chassis 'taken out of circulation' for it to be "1926"?
Presumably that happened all the time 50 years ago.
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Tony Betts - 15-07-2019
%#^*+# o^#
That would make me 60+
I may feel it, but that don't count
Tony.
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Duncan Grimmond - 15-07-2019
" If Galleria dell'Accademia di Firenze knocked out a papier-mache David, visitors would be incensed, even if they themselves were unable to tell the difference. "
When I went to Florence I saw the "real" Hemes lying in a bath of preservation salts awaiting some serious restoration while I'd just seen a perfectly good faithful copy on display outdoors just around the corner. I didn't mind at all, I was only too glad that the masterpiece was being lovingly cared for.
I continue to be astonished that the original bronze casting was done in a single pour, one-off, right first time.
If you have the interest I recommend Cellini's " Treatise on Sculpture and Metalwork". There was a guy who knew where his towel was!
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - steve62008 - 15-07-2019
15 grand!?!?!? Is it really, really, really rare??? Realy?
Charge what the unknowledgeable market allows, I guess
Steve
RE: 1926 Doctor's Coupe for sale on eBay - Mike Costigan - 15-07-2019
Had it been built up on correct spec mid-1920s components when the body was built, then a £15,000 price tag might be appropriate, but this car probably now needs £15,000 spending on it to make it a £15,000 car!
As for modern-day evocations or whatever you want to call them, what do you make of the 6.5 million quid Aston Martin DB4 Zagato which you can buy from Astons, but cannot use on the road because it doesn't comply with today's construction regs, and cannot use in Historic racing unless your face fits !