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RE: Holden body - 153624 - 26-05-2018
(26-05-2018, 03:43 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(26-05-2018, 01:02 AM)Bill Sheehan Wrote:(25-05-2018, 03:49 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(24-05-2018, 12:03 PM)153624 Wrote: Sorry for the delay, hopefully this is useful. Ive been told it is an early holden body car built in october 1927.
Any information will be appreciated
Thanks, Luke
Hi Luke,
As Bill said - it is very difficult to say which of the local body builders made which car. I believe Holden and Company Motor Body Builders together with Melbourne Motor Body Builders were among the more prolific so yours could be a 'Holden' body.
Up to 1928 Holden bodies were sometimes fitted with an identification plate as below on the body, inside in front of the passengers door.
Later saloons had an aluminium Holden car body number plate under the back seat, some had the new Lion and Ball ID plate .
This is my 1928 Holden bodied Chummy - you might note that the headlamps have been moved from the brackets on the screen supports to the front guards- which alteration was carried out probably at delivery - there is another Club Chummy some 400 numbers different from mine which has the identical modification. The radiator cowl has also been plated - not sure when but possibly at delivery - well before 1955 anyway.
The body swage is visible as is the position of the single piece screen 'hinge' point.
I have the original Victorian Motor Registration document signed by the great T (Thomas) A Blamey, Chief Commissioner of Police and other than a repaint (and a 1928 coil motor M 71801)) this car has not been altered since 1955 - I still have the original magneto motor M 69139.
Tony - only problem with that, is although there may be a few altered or updated after purchase, it doesn't really establish that they were like that on leaving the showroom floor, does it? The Victorian Motor Registration document for all cars & motorcycles was first introduced in 1932 (and they were all completed by end of 1933) so it doesn't tell us who was the original owner or even the original chassis number for the car. I once had to track down a 1928 Seven's history and found it had had 4 owners prior to the one current at the time the 1932 Document was issued. It had also been repainted in the intervening time. (Admittedly two of the four were dealers, but perhaps illustrated that some or maybe many cars could have had a non-original history before the Certificates were issued? Cheers, Bill in Oz
Bill,
No wire holes in the scuttle seems to indicate the lamps were moved before it was first registered - possibly in 1928- or 1929. Unfortunately no prior history is available from the early records held by the Association of Motoring Clubs.
The January 1933 Registration document shows the colour to be typed in as Buff & Maroon, Wheels Do (I assume ditto) then Cream, next Buff crossed out and Grey written with the wheels Blk, (black) followed by ? Faun (sic) and Black with Blk wheels. The body is now white with black guards and wheels but from my memory the white was creamier in the 50's. If this was Fawn then it was a very light Fawn !
Cheers, Tony.
From what I can gather my vehicle is most likely a late 1927 chummy made by Melbourne motor body builders, I believe the first owner was a lady in carlton and that it originally had a yellow stripe where the swage line would be. It currently has lucas king of the road headlights which I dont know if they are original, however they have always been mounted on the guards.
Does anyone have any information about Melbourne body builders that could be used to support this theory?
One other thing that might be worth mentioning, My vehicle has an aluminium scuttle with a raised join to the steel rear section at the bottom of the doors.
Thanks, Luke
RE: Holden body - steve davidson - 28-05-2018
(26-05-2018, 11:35 AM)153624 Wrote:Hi Luke,(26-05-2018, 03:43 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(26-05-2018, 01:02 AM)Bill Sheehan Wrote:(25-05-2018, 03:49 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(24-05-2018, 12:03 PM)153624 Wrote: Sorry for the delay, hopefully this is useful. Ive been told it is an early holden body car built in october 1927.
Any information will be appreciated
Thanks, Luke
Hi Luke,
As Bill said - it is very difficult to say which of the local body builders made which car. I believe Holden and Company Motor Body Builders together with Melbourne Motor Body Builders were among the more prolific so yours could be a 'Holden' body.
Up to 1928 Holden bodies were sometimes fitted with an identification plate as below on the body, inside in front of the passengers door.
Later saloons had an aluminium Holden car body number plate under the back seat, some had the new Lion and Ball ID plate .
This is my 1928 Holden bodied Chummy - you might note that the headlamps have been moved from the brackets on the screen supports to the front guards- which alteration was carried out probably at delivery - there is another Club Chummy some 400 numbers different from mine which has the identical modification. The radiator cowl has also been plated - not sure when but possibly at delivery - well before 1955 anyway.
The body swage is visible as is the position of the single piece screen 'hinge' point.
I have the original Victorian Motor Registration document signed by the great T (Thomas) A Blamey, Chief Commissioner of Police and other than a repaint (and a 1928 coil motor M 71801)) this car has not been altered since 1955 - I still have the original magneto motor M 69139.
Tony - only problem with that, is although there may be a few altered or updated after purchase, it doesn't really establish that they were like that on leaving the showroom floor, does it? The Victorian Motor Registration document for all cars & motorcycles was first introduced in 1932 (and they were all completed by end of 1933) so it doesn't tell us who was the original owner or even the original chassis number for the car. I once had to track down a 1928 Seven's history and found it had had 4 owners prior to the one current at the time the 1932 Document was issued. It had also been repainted in the intervening time. (Admittedly two of the four were dealers, but perhaps illustrated that some or maybe many cars could have had a non-original history before the Certificates were issued? Cheers, Bill in Oz
Bill,
No wire holes in the scuttle seems to indicate the lamps were moved before it was first registered - possibly in 1928- or 1929. Unfortunately no prior history is available from the early records held by the Association of Motoring Clubs.
The January 1933 Registration document shows the colour to be typed in as Buff & Maroon, Wheels Do (I assume ditto) then Cream, next Buff crossed out and Grey written with the wheels Blk, (black) followed by ? Faun (sic) and Black with Blk wheels. The body is now white with black guards and wheels but from my memory the white was creamier in the 50's. If this was Fawn then it was a very light Fawn !
Cheers, Tony.
From what I can gather my vehicle is most likely a late 1927 chummy made by Melbourne motor body builders, I believe the first owner was a lady in carlton and that it originally had a yellow stripe where the swage line would be. It currently has lucas king of the road headlights which I dont know if they are original, however they have always been mounted on the guards.
Does anyone have any information about Melbourne body builders that could be used to support this theory?
One other thing that might be worth mentioning, My vehicle has an aluminium scuttle with a raised join to the steel rear section at the bottom of the doors.
Thanks, Luke
Attached are pages 132 and 134 of the Austin Seven Source book by Bryan Purves
RE: Holden body - Bill Sheehan - 29-05-2018
(28-05-2018, 10:48 AM)steve davidson Wrote:(26-05-2018, 11:35 AM)153624 Wrote:Hi Luke,(26-05-2018, 03:43 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(26-05-2018, 01:02 AM)Bill Sheehan Wrote:(25-05-2018, 03:49 AM)Tony Press Wrote: Hi Luke,
As Bill said - it is very difficult to say which of the local body builders made which car. I believe Holden and Company Motor Body Builders together with Melbourne Motor Body Builders were among the more prolific so yours could be a 'Holden' body.
Up to 1928 Holden bodies were sometimes fitted with an identification plate as below on the body, inside in front of the passengers door.
Later saloons had an aluminium Holden car body number plate under the back seat, some had the new Lion and Ball ID plate .
This is my 1928 Holden bodied Chummy - you might note that the headlamps have been moved from the brackets on the screen supports to the front guards- which alteration was carried out probably at delivery - there is another Club Chummy some 400 numbers different from mine which has the identical modification. The radiator cowl has also been plated - not sure when but possibly at delivery - well before 1955 anyway.
The body swage is visible as is the position of the single piece screen 'hinge' point.
I have the original Victorian Motor Registration document signed by the great T (Thomas) A Blamey, Chief Commissioner of Police and other than a repaint (and a 1928 coil motor M 71801)) this car has not been altered since 1955 - I still have the original magneto motor M 69139.
Tony - only problem with that, is although there may be a few altered or updated after purchase, it doesn't really establish that they were like that on leaving the showroom floor, does it? The Victorian Motor Registration document for all cars & motorcycles was first introduced in 1932 (and they were all completed by end of 1933) so it doesn't tell us who was the original owner or even the original chassis number for the car. I once had to track down a 1928 Seven's history and found it had had 4 owners prior to the one current at the time the 1932 Document was issued. It had also been repainted in the intervening time. (Admittedly two of the four were dealers, but perhaps illustrated that some or maybe many cars could have had a non-original history before the Certificates were issued? Cheers, Bill in Oz
Bill,
No wire holes in the scuttle seems to indicate the lamps were moved before it was first registered - possibly in 1928- or 1929. Unfortunately no prior history is available from the early records held by the Association of Motoring Clubs.
The January 1933 Registration document shows the colour to be typed in as Buff & Maroon, Wheels Do (I assume ditto) then Cream, next Buff crossed out and Grey written with the wheels Blk, (black) followed by ? Faun (sic) and Black with Blk wheels. The body is now white with black guards and wheels but from my memory the white was creamier in the 50's. If this was Fawn then it was a very light Fawn !
Cheers, Tony.
From what I can gather my vehicle is most likely a late 1927 chummy made by Melbourne motor body builders, I believe the first owner was a lady in carlton and that it originally had a yellow stripe where the swage line would be. It currently has lucas king of the road headlights which I dont know if they are original, however they have always been mounted on the guards.
Does anyone have any information about Melbourne body builders that could be used to support this theory?
One other thing that might be worth mentioning, My vehicle has an aluminium scuttle with a raised join to the steel rear section at the bottom of the doors.
Thanks, Luke
Attached are pages 132 and 134 of the Austin Seven Source book by Bryan Purves
RE: Holden body - Tony Press - 29-05-2018
Try again Bill.
Cheers, Tony.
RE: Holden body - dwhitelephant - 29-05-2018
I bought recently from Adelaide a car identical to the car in question with respect to the bodywork/ windscreen etc, it also has an aluminium scuttle identical to an Austin manufactured one and this also turns to a steel rear section behind the doors with no swage either. It was a barn find last used in 1956 still with a South Australia tax disc in the window, its car number was registered as the engine number M60171 making it around early 1928 assuming the original engine intact as everything else was, interestingly a scuttle vent exists in front of the windscreen. As there are no chassis stampings on cars of this time in question they must have been registered by engine no. The hood is not as Holden cars a' sort of pram hood' but a standard Austin works style of the time. The lucas chummy scuttle lamps are fitted as standard at the windscreen on those awful brass windscreen supports. hope this helps
RE: Holden body - Bill Sheehan - 30-05-2018
(29-05-2018, 10:05 PM)dwhitelephant Wrote: I bought recently from Adelaide a car identical to the car in question with respect to the bodywork/ windscreen etc, it also has an aluminium scuttle identical to an Austin manufactured one and this also turns to a steel rear section behind the doors with no swage either. It was a barn find last used in 1956 still with a South Australia tax disc in the window, its car number was registered as the engine number M60171 making it around early 1928 assuming the original engine intact as everything else was, interestingly a scuttle vent exists in front of the windscreen. As there are no chassis stampings on cars of this time in question they must have been registered by engine no. The hood is not as Holden cars a' sort of pram hood' but a standard Austin works style of the time. The lucas chummy scuttle lamps are fitted as standard at the windscreen on those awful brass windscreen supports. hope this helps
dwe - we have evidence of at least a dozen chassis on 1929 Sevens that don't have the chassis number stamped, even though many English owners don't believe us. However, I've never heard before of a 1928 chassis or any other year except 1929 not being stamped and stencilled. Are you sure you are looking in the right place with gunk & paint removed? Further to other posts above, I apologise for forgetting to bring from home a list of other body suppliers in the period, which indicates that perhaps Holden-making isn't always a certainty. Sounds like your car is a great find - enjoy. Good Luck, Cheers, Bill
RE: Holden body - Tony Press - 30-05-2018
(26-05-2018, 11:35 AM)153624 Wrote: [quote pid='10733' dateline='1527302638']
From what I can gather my vehicle is most likely a late 1927 chummy made by Melbourne motor body builders, I believe the first owner was a lady in carlton and that it originally had a yellow stripe where the swage line would be. It currently has lucas king of the road headlights which I dont know if they are original, however they have always been mounted on the guards.
Does anyone have any information about Melbourne body builders that could be used to support this theory?
One other thing that might be worth mentioning, My vehicle has an aluminium scuttle with a raised join to the steel rear section at the bottom of the doors.
Thanks, Luke
[/quote]
Luke,
You haven't mentioned the engine number or chassis number of your Austin Seven, which will help date it.
The engine may not be original but if it is it would be within a few hundred of the chassis number.
For a 1927 car they should be roughly between 30,000 and 50,000.
As well as Holden and Company and Melbourne Motor Body Builders, other Australian Austin Seven body builders include J W George Melbourne , William Green Sydney, New South Wales Motors, James Flood Melbourne, A Robinson and Company Sydney, Properts Motor Body Company Sydney, Latrobe Motors Melbourne (who I believe had others build the bodies for them to sell as Latrobes).
Below is the later Holden ID plate fitted to cars in 1929-1930
csm_Holden_badge_2_a82b44a499[1].jpg (Size: 19.45 KB / Downloads: 224)
My knowledge of Melbourne Motor Body Builders-
Tarrant Motors started selling cars in Victoria during the first decade 1900’s with several operating subsidiaries including Smith’s coach building business in Queensbridge Street, South Melbourne in 1903. Four years later the motor body department moved to larger premises in Exhibition Street, Melbourne and adopted the name “Melbourne Motor Body Works”. In 1909 larger premises in Lygon Street were acquired when contracts were obtained from Fords. There followed further expansion with a new factory at 149 Lonsdale Street Melbourne during the First World War.
In 1925 Ford built their own plant at Geelong and ‘Melbourne Motor Body Works’ returned to the manufacture of bodies for a range of British and American car chassis. In 1929, the trade depression hit hard and a workforce of 400 fell to just 40.
I assume that around this is time they combined with Holdens .
Apparently in February 1930 the company changed its name to Ruskin Motor Bodies Ltd. of Dudley Street, West Melbourne.
As “Ruskin Motor Bodies Pty Ltd,” bodies were made on chassis for Morris Motors Ltd. and Hudson Terraplane, these two accounting for much of the firm’s production up to 1939.
Cheers, Tony.
RE: Holden body - 153624 - 30-05-2018
(30-05-2018, 05:51 AM)Tony Press Wrote:(26-05-2018, 11:35 AM)153624 Wrote: [quote pid='10733' dateline='1527302638']
From what I can gather my vehicle is most likely a late 1927 chummy made by Melbourne motor body builders, I believe the first owner was a lady in carlton and that it originally had a yellow stripe where the swage line would be. It currently has lucas king of the road headlights which I dont know if they are original, however they have always been mounted on the guards.
Does anyone have any information about Melbourne body builders that could be used to support this theory?
One other thing that might be worth mentioning, My vehicle has an aluminium scuttle with a raised join to the steel rear section at the bottom of the doors.
Thanks, Luke
Luke,
You haven't mentioned the engine number or chassis number of your Austin Seven, which will help date it.
The engine may not be original but if it is it would be within a few hundred of the chassis number.
For a 1927 car they should be roughly between 30,000 and 50,000.
As well as Holden and Company and Melbourne Motor Body Builders, other Australian Austin Seven body builders include J W George Melbourne , William Green Sydney, New South Wales Motors, James Flood Melbourne, A Robinson and Company Sydney, Properts Motor Body Company Sydney, Latrobe Motors Melbourne (who I believe had others build the bodies for them to sell as Latrobes).
Below is the later Holden ID plate fitted to cars in 1929-1930
My knowledge of Melbourne Motor Body Builders-
Tarrant Motors started selling cars in Victoria during the first decade 1900’s with several operating subsidiaries including Smith’s coach building business in Queensbridge Street, South Melbourne in 1903. Four years later the motor body department moved to larger premises in Exhibition Street, Melbourne and adopted the name “Melbourne Motor Body Works”. In 1909 larger premises in Lygon Street were acquired when contracts were obtained from Fords. There followed further expansion with a new factory at 149 Lonsdale Street Melbourne during the First World War.
In 1925 Ford built their own plant at Geelong and ‘Melbourne Motor Body Works’ returned to the manufacture of bodies for a range of British and American car chassis. In 1929, the trade depression hit hard and a workforce of 400 fell to just 40.
I assume that around this is time they combined with Holdens .
Apparently in February 1930 the company changed its name to Ruskin Motor Bodies Ltd. of Dudley Street, West Melbourne.
As “Ruskin Motor Bodies Pty Ltd,” bodies were made on chassis for Morris Motors Ltd. and Hudson Terraplane, these two accounting for much of the firm’s production up to 1939.
Cheers, Tony.
[/quote]
Being an ex Bob Booth car it has had a few different engines in it, originally it had a magneto engine which is long gone. In 1977 engine number M66422 was replaced with engine number M217175. When Bob purchased the car he also bought the original engine separate, which he reinstalled. The car now has a pressure fed distributor engine with a 1937 high compression head. Apparently the chassis has never been removed from the body and it has the original front axel and rear differential, I dont know what the chassis number is, was it stamped into the chassis somewhere?
RE: Holden body - Bill Sheehan - 31-05-2018
Further to above re possible Body builders (and not necessarily Holden) in the period mentioned. Try Richards, Green, Steenbohm, Propert, Agate, Sweeney, George, Dan White, plus another near the cnr of Carlisle & Brighton Rds, St.Kilda, whose name I've temporarily forgotten. Although a few of them were based in Sydney, Austin Distributors in Melbourne dealt with all of them including Holden. (Apart from Green who also made a coupe, the above list does not include the specialist builders of Sports bodies). Take your pick. Cheers, Bill
And Tony, I was told by an ex employee of Ruskin Motors that he felt that just as many bodies were made for Austin as for Morris - in fact he claimed they produced one body that could be adapted to either chassis! - but guessed more for Austin, that's why he felt Austin bought them out and assembled their own products from then on. Cheers, Bill
RE: Holden body - Tony Press - 31-05-2018
"Apparently the chassis has never been removed from the body and it has the original front axel and rear differential, I dont know what the chassis number is, was it stamped into the chassis somewhere? "
Luke,
Have a look at -
http://a7ca.org/downloads/QuoteThisNumber.pdf
which shows where all the various car numbers are found.
Tony.